[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

Steven Lawrence owes Susan Dean a big apology, I expect it to be forthcoming.

Doug

[Garyj]

You can ban me for my reply, I wouldn't want to belong to a forum that has Stepehen Lawrence from Dry & Clean, Hampton, London as a member.

[Peter Sweeney]

Certainly wont be passing any work his way either Gary

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

He has his opportunity which will show his character.

Doug

[Tony Gill Carpet Smart]

Crossed the line with a comment like that we don't need him on this forum.

TONY

[Hilton]

Totally inapropriate but don't become a lynch mob, probably didn't think through the comment.
As Doug says give the guy a chance to retract....

[Gary Longley]

Umm, just read the quote bit and I'm shocked at that comment. Even I wouldn't go that low 

[steven Banks]

An Apology is certainly needed. There’s too much sh*t flying about on here sometimes

There’s an old saying “if you can't say anything nice, don't say it"
I knew that the "price war" thread would stir trouble of one sort or another.

[Garyj]

Yeah, but a big difference though between a heated debate, banter and a laugh and what that idiot said. It's not even if you can give him any slack for his age or anything, he must be in his 50's. Also what he said had no relevance to the thread, it was just a sick personnel comment from an ignorant nobody. 

[Mike Halliday]

what Steven said  was unforgivable, and showed a complete lack of judgment, but looking back at his past posts this looks out of charector.

we've all said things that we later regret and often the embarrassment of what we've said makes it dificult to take the appropriate action.

my adivce to Him would be be honest admit this was posted in haste without totally apprecaiting how the comment would be taken and just say ......sorry

[Tony Gill Carpet Smart]

Well put Mike

Tony

[Gary Longley]

Send him to the TOWER!!!!

[like]

[jasonl]

The statement has been removed. However the thoughtless moron who said it ........ has not.

I agree the thread was quite heated, and was actually very entertaining right up until that comment.

10 hours later and still no apology though.

Get rid of the idiot who is not man enough to admit and apologise for a crass bad taste personal comment.

The statement is still present in Quotes , I think the mods need to apologise for  not explaining how this  , the worst ever comment on here is being dealt with , me and at least 2 others are leaving if it is not dealt with promptly.

[Mike Halliday]

Jason this topic was started by Doug so he has a chance to apologies  if he does not he membership of CIU will be rescinded we could delete all mention of what he said but doesn't erase the the fact that he said it.

what action would you feel adequate?

if you feel our action is inadequate or not done quickly enough then you are quite within your rights to leave....what a sad loss that would be

[Mike Halliday]

but i will add if you are anyone believes the action (or lack of action) by the moderators has been inadequate, inflamed the situation  or has caused any further insult to Susan then on behalf of the moderators   i do sincerely apologies.

i think the quicker Steven apologises the better, then this incident can be put behind us and we can get back to the real purpose of CIU carpet cleaners helping other carpet cleaners

[jasonl]

Fair play Mike , but can you imagine if someone said that about a family tragedy of yours?

I dont know exactly what I would do about it , but I have got a good idea .

[james roffey]

I did hesitate before being critical of Susan's grammar and spelling, realising my own is not that good at times. But i did genuinely believe that her customers may be put off by it, seeing it as unprofessional, also if the subject of her post her attitude and contradictory argument had not irritated me the way it did, then perhaps i would have said nothing.
However i regret it now because of what was said as a consequence of my own post about Susan's spelling and grammar, it was an incredibly insensitive remark that was made, and i hope that an apology follows very shortly.
We all know that this forum can become quite heated at times but lets not forget it is an invaluable tool to many of us and for the most part the members are friendly and respectful, the vast majority who use it stay within the boundaries of decency.
  

[Mike Halliday]

Jason yes it is an horrendous comment.

 but just in my opionion (which might not be shared by other members or the Mods) is people make mistakes, we've  all done it.......

"but its our action afterwards that defines the person we are"

years ago I called my father in law a greedy Cu*t.   The next morning i was so ashamed at what I said I cried as I apologised( but I did apologies)  now my father in law has accepted my apology and it is never mentioned.

if Steven  does'nt do the right thing, he will be banned

[Derek_Walker]

Everyone needs to remember that they are dealing with real people on this forum even though you cannot see them. There may be differences of opinion and heated debates, but we should at least treat each other with respect.

[Craigp]

I think he should have the chance to apologise. We all make mistakes also he could have been drinking, not an excuse but people don't think so straight then.

Banning him with no second chance, and a chance to retify things would be too harsh IMO.

Otherwise we would all be just one daft comment away from a ban, and man there be a lot of bans then! Lol

[AshWhite]

I'm with Craig on this one. Silly bugger still probably unaware of the uproar he's caused.

I think he may have misread the mood and got a bit carried away with the cheap prices/bad spelling bashing.

[garry22]

Mike,

Sometimes after a row I will give this forum a miss for a couple of days.

Is it not worth the Moderators dropping Steve a quick email? As Ash says, he may not be aware of peoples' reactions.

[Mike Halliday]

Garry we can check when the last time a member logged on, he has seen the problem he has caused. he will be banned as he has not taken the opportunity to apologies,

[Gary Longley]

Mike,

Sometimes after a row I will give this forum a miss for a couple of days.

Is it not worth the Moderators dropping Steve a quick email? As Ash says, he may not be aware of peoples' reactions.

Don't rely on the moderator's do anything except delete legitimate posts - disgusting behaviour!

[Gary Longley]

Mike keeps deleting my posts. Everytime I post. I posted a good response to the problem thread and it was deleted without explanation?

So annoying. This will get deleted by Mike. I have made a formal complaint to the owner's of this forum. The moderators are dreadfull on here.

[Garyj]

Mike keeps deleting my posts. Everytime I post. I posted a good response to the problem thread and it was deleted without explanation?

So annoying. This will get deleted by Mike.

Think the moderators have made their stand pretty clear so stick ya beak out for a bit. After all the years I have been on this forum they have never deleted a post for 'no reason', you can see by this thread just how lenient they are so give it a rest.

[Gary Longley]

The only reason that you can say that they have never deleted a post without good reason is because you have never seen them...

Ie:  the posts have been deleted without you seeing them, and as they have been deleted you did not know that they existed.

That's a very intelligent post 

[Shaun_Ashmore]

I've not been a mod for long but I have never deleted a post or thread yet, I've been a member for nearly 10 years and noticed hardly any posts being deleted, it's quite an open forum and that's why some posts go on and on and 'problems' happen.

Shaun

[Craigp]

I suspect some posts that had quoted the offensive post have been deleted.

[Gary Longley]

I've not been a mod for long but I have never deleted a post or thread yet, I've been a member for nearly 10 years and noticed hardly any posts being deleted, it's quite an open forum and that's why some posts go on and on and 'problems' happen.

Shaun

This will get deleted by Mike as he's been doing this for the past hour. Why, I dont know?

I wrote a long post giving my views on the problamatic thread, perfectly reasonable, nothing contentious, a perfectly good post. I published it, he deleted it without any explanation. Ok, he can delete it but at least tell the poster why? So annoying, it really is Moderation at its worst.

I have made a complaint about him, lets hope its at least noted. Very bad moderating.
If a post doesn't suit him then he presses the magic button.

[Mike Halliday]

I have been deleting garys posts as he has being posting inappropriate comments so they get deleted so he can complain that his post are getting deleted ( if that makes sense)

he is making a mockery of this serious  topic to just cause trouble

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

I too have been deleting his posts which are childish and inappropriate in these circumstances, lets have a grown up approach please.

Cheers

doug

[Tony Gill Carpet Smart]

24 hrs is more than enough time for him to have done the wright thing IMO.

Tony

[Peter Sweeney]

TataI agree tony and he cleary isnt man eonugh to do the right thing. As for this Longley moron or whoever he really is just pollutes the forum. Jokes, the lot of them. Now go on, make a pratt of yourself, because I have met Doug, Mike and Shaun and joking/banter aside they are all intelligent, decent people.

tata

[Billy Russell]

TataI agree tony and he cleary isnt man eonugh to do the right thing. As for this Longley moron or whoever he really is just pollutes the forum. Jokes, the lot of them. Now go on, make a pratt of yourself, because I have met Doug, Mike and Shaun and joking/banter aside they are all intelligent, decent people.

tata

Are you sure? Granted, Doug and Mike seem intellegent guys, but Shaun, Really? 

[Jim_77]

Mike stop doing all the deleting and give someone else a chance you greedy .......

Sorry just trying to lighten the mood.

Two very poignant features of Cleanitup are highlighted by this.

Firstly, it is absolutely POINTLESS banning someone off this forum.. they can just re-register and carry on under a slightly different name.  Kid yourselves all you like, you do not know who you are talking to unless they are people who you have met in real life or have at least got a lot of other forum members to vouch for them.

If you ban someone you are just going to encourage them to kick back against the forum.  The only sensible, logical and viable thing to do.... IF the owners/mods of this forum actually give a sh*t... is to phone that person up and talk to them about what has been posted.

Can't do that?  That's because this forum is a free-for-all and anyone can get on it and post their own brand of boll*cks (take me as a prime example )

So, Cleanitup, you have made a rod for your own back.  You have given Mr A. N. Other a chance to anonymously abuse/defame/insult the members of the forum without any chance of repercussion or comeback.

I would take a serious note of the current legal situation regarding internet bullying.  In the past it has been taken as a given that "people post sh*t on the internet" but not any more..... there have been much more serious legal implications ion recent times.  Does the owner of this forum really want to provide a platform for people to wantonly break the law?

In moral terms it could be worse than providing a site for free illegal downloads of copyrighted music.

Time to re-think and evolve.  And stamp out the trolls

Anyone who hasn't got the balls to use an account with their real name and email address does not have the right to use such a forum, in my opinion



(By the way do you really think Steven Lawrence is a real name?  Nothing to do with the infamous murder case on the streets of London a number of years ago?  It's even less imaginative than such pseudonyms as Neal Down )

[Garyj]

Stephen Lawrence is his real name Jim, he is also on Linkedin and the name of his company is already posted on here, it is easily findable along with his address and phone numbers.

To be fair to Clean It Up, it is the biggest site of its kind in the uk and the most exciting, because of the way it operates it provokes debate and is stimulating and exciting even if at times that comes with a payoff of having a few clown members. I find the other forums pretty sterile and a bit too chummy for my liking.

Stop being alarmist Jim, no law was broken.

[Carpet Dawg]

Jim

Trolls are impossible to combat. They are on all internet forums. Much bigger, much more populated and better known forums than cleanitup.

I suppose you could delete obvious trolls as soon as they start posting. They'd soon get fed up.

To do what I assume your suggesting and make it like the solutions forum would kill this sites revenue.

[Jim_77]

Gary, if it is his real name/details then he is contactable and I would suggest the only course of action is for the forum owner/admins to contact him directly (by real world means such as talking on the telephone) and resolve the situation through that medium.

I presume you are a qualified lawyer, to state no law has been broken?  There has been a lot of publicity recently about things posted on the internet, and the legal position of such actions.

Tony, totally incorrect.  It is absolutely possible to combat such activities by instigating such vetting procedures as operated by Cleantalk.

The old adage of "quality not quantity" is so true.  There is only a fraction of the activity on that forum but you know what?  There is hundreds of times more USEFUL information and discussion compared to the endless "How do I switch my machine on?" topics posted on here.

Sure, it might not be the most vibrant forum on the internet but at least you know the people you're talking to are real people and that if anything kicks off there is accountability, which is something woefully lacking on Cleanitup.  But the point is, nothing kicks off because everyone is posting under the full realisation that they are fully accountable for their words and actions, so it remains a place of RESPECT for fellow forum users.

Kill revenue?  OK so then we are dealing with the question of ethics.  Is it ethical to operate a forum that sells advertising based on page impression counts, regardless of the fact it is providing a platform for abusive/inappropriate attacks on its members?

I've been on the interweb for years mate, and have owned/moderated forums over those years.  I've also been on the other side of the fence, being part of the "renegade" factions who flagrantly dish out all sorts of cr*p for their own personal amusement because it's funny.  You just can't do that kind of stuff any more.

Biggest point of argument is that the 80/20 rule probably applies.... 80% of the postings would likely come from 20% of the membership.  Therefore, filtering out the accounts that don't want to give their name/details over will have a minimal impact on the forum traffic.  Those who are genuine users would willingly make known their real name etc if they truly want to use the forum and positively contribute to it.

[Garyj]

Don't be an arse Jim, you know damn well I am not a qualified lawyer and you sound stupid presuming such a thing because I said no law had been broken. It was a one off remark in very bad taste and not a sustained bullying attack, it wasn't even defamatory. It's already been pointed out that the mods have it in hand and we have no idea what is going on behind the scenes.

You are now suggesting that CIU is not ethical and doesn't care what is posted, that IS a defamatory remark and you don't have to be a lawyer to know that. If you feel so strongly then why are you adding to those impressions?

The mods on here have always been consistent on one thing over the years, and that is if you don't like it you know where the door is.

[Jim_77]

"Here's a gun... here's some bullets... now don't go and shoot anyone, will you...."

If Cleanitup has any sort of problem with people making the sort of remarks in question, it knows what to do.  The beauty of owning a forum is that you can set the rules and do what you want with it.

It's as simple as that 

[Simon Gerrard]

I co own the Truckmounters forum and this simply wouldn't be allowed to become an issue. We've had our fair share of 'heated' debates over the years but it is NEVER allowed to become personal and our members know and for the most part respect that. The problem with CIU is that it is about quantity, not quality, because it is a business that sells advertising and the greater the number of people exposed to the advertising the more revenue it generates, which is fair enough.
I don't think that is an excuse for having NO rules governing behaviour, espcially when it becomes personal to the point of insulting.
I'm not suggesting Stephen Lawrence should be banned, but I do think that the Owner / Mods should make an an example of people who go too far. Rather than deleting his posts perhaps it should have been pasted into a Locked Topic by the Moderators  entitle, 'Unacceptable Behaviour,' and outline what action has been taken. This lets everyone know that there are rules and if people value the great resource that CIU undoubedly is, they should adhere to them.
Susan and Julian Dean are good, honest, hardworking people and if anyone knows Julian he may have his own ideas on how to resolve this issue.

Simon

[Paul Moss]

As Stephen has gone quiet, then Julian has probably dealt with it 

[Peter Sweeney]

As Stephen has gone quiet, then Julian has probably dealt with it 

For once I agree with both Simon and Paul at the same time 

 

[john martin]

 Cleantalk.
The old adage of "quality not quantity" is so true.  There is only a fraction of the activity on that forum but you know what?  There is hundreds of times more USEFUL information and discussion compared to the endless "How do I switch my machine on?" topics posted on here.

From the bits I've read on the other forum i would disagree , where as you and a couple of others give informative detailed answers ,
true discussion is usually stifled and info from the forum 'leaders' is deliberately  vague to the point of being useless ...   to give a couple of  examples off the top of my head ....
Someone asked  ...  Mpower is plant based , from which plant is it derived  ..... the reply from John Bolton , "commercial confidentiality dictates that you will not get the answer you seek " 
Then when someone posts the likely ingredients its dismissed as a "different formulation "   

Another example ,  someone asks "  if the CA booster contains a less powerfull 5.7 vac than the 6.6 ,  does it not negatively effect jag performance  ,  the question is fobbed off by john bolton  instead of giving the real reply which would be  ....   the 5.7 actually has more lift than the 6.6 , therefore it doesn't put a ' hole ' in overall system performance .

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

The fundamental difference between Cleanitup and Cleantalk is that the latter is owned by a supplier and the former isn't.

Cheers

Doug

[Shaun_Ashmore]

TBH if I owned a forum and sold my products on there I would defend them and not give out the secret ingredients CT is more of a club and members tend to agree with each other and use all the same products as is what CT and WOC was designed for, on here it is more open to suggestion and that's why we get more 'chancers' wanting to antagonise posters but there is no purpose or direction or politics, no elitism from the owner as he keeps well out of it (usually on a pool side in the Bahamas) I'm happy to be a member of both forums I enjoy them both but because this is quicker moving I spend more time on here.

Shaun

[jasonl]

Can a mod confirm that SL is now banned ?

[Richard Basey-Fisher]

my mrs is hoping one day i will be banned from all the forums 

[Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)]

Whether an apology is made or not, who is going to want to have anything much to do with Mr.L after making that remark ?

[Ian Gourlay]

Jim

I totally agree with you  I would like to see full vetting of anyone who joins.

This may slow down joining but people would then be more committed if they have had to wait and still want to participate.

I would like it to be impossible to change user name and all silly names would not be granted entry.

These ideas have been put to the owners several times over the past years, but I think the problem is time and cost.

I think being a member of Cleanitup should be considered as prestigious as being in some organization such as NCCA as it shows you are committed to being a better cleaner and sharing with other members of your trade.

[JandS]

Freedom of speech!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mike Halliday]

i have deleted my last reply as i believe this topic has lost its direction and had a very serious porpose.

i will lock it now if any one wants to continue any  pionts brought up as a side line within this topic please start a dedicated post

[JandS]

"I do not agree with what you said, but I'll defend to
the death your right to say it"

Can't remember who said it but it stands for me.

Mike....bit puerile methinks, especially the last bit.

John

[Mike Halliday]

john I agree, I was trying to make a piont about the free speech, I have altered my post and will now lock this topic.  I meant no  insult to  you  and if i offended you i apoligies