[8weekly]

I have a split charge in a Boxer van and I've just had one fitted to a Transit Custom. My question is this - when I start the Transit engine, the controller shows no increase in volts in the leisure battery, but in the Boxer, it instantly shows a full charge when the engine is started. Is there a problem with the split charger? I should say it was only fitted yesterday so I've just tested it for the first time with the engine running. I did see a previous thread on here on this a year or two ago when I searched.  I don't have Start - Stop. It's the basic van - no aircon.

[Spruce]

When the van's engine is idling, put a multimeter across the starter battery and see if the starter battery is charging.

Ford state that the Custom has "Other technologies, such as Smart Regenerative Charging, also help make the all-new Transit’s powerful new engines even more fuel-efficient."

If your van has Smart Regenerative Charging then this is the issue. The ECU will only signal the alternator to start charging the van's starter battery when it drops to 80% charged. Ford have left the other 20% of battery charge to be replenished when decelerating.

I understand that the way to overcome this is to fit a smart battery to battery charger. Sterling products have led the field in this technology but these units aren't cheap.

The battery to battery charger senses when your leisure battery needs charging and draws the current required from the starter battery to do this. Once the starter battery gets down to 80% then the vans alternator takes over.

https://www.grippatank.co.uk/full-kit-12v-30amp-smart-battery-to-battery-charger


http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/sterling-pro-batt-ultra-battery-to-battery-charger-12v12v-30a.html

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[slap bash]

There has been a question before about this problem. I cannot remember what the out come as I drive a connect.  But remember a Split charger would only charge your leisure battery after the van battery is fully charged.This is what I understand who they work. Try doing a search on the subject.

[8weekly]

When the van's engine is idling, put a multimeter across the starter battery and see if the starter battery is charging.

Ford state that the Custom has "Other technologies, such as Smart Regenerative Charging, also help make the all-new Transit’s powerful new engines even more fuel-efficient."

If your van has Smart Regenerative Charging then this is the issue. The ECU will only signal the alternator to start charging the van's starter battery when it drops to 80% charged. Ford have left the other 20% of battery charge to be replenished when decelerating.

I understand that the way to overcome this is to fit a smart battery to battery charger. Sterling products have led the field in this technology but these units aren't cheap.

The battery to battery charger senses when your leisure battery needs charging and draws the current required from the starter battery to do this. Once the starter battery gets down to 80% then the vans alternator takes over.

https://www.grippatank.co.uk/full-kit-12v-30amp-smart-battery-to-battery-charger


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Thank you for that succinct explanation.

[Spruce]

When the van's engine is idling, put a multimeter across the starter battery and see if the starter battery is charging.

Ford state that the Custom has "Other technologies, such as Smart Regenerative Charging, also help make the all-new Transit’s powerful new engines even more fuel-efficient."

If your van has Smart Regenerative Charging then this is the issue. The ECU will only signal the alternator to start charging the van's starter battery when it drops to 80% charged. Ford have left the other 20% of battery charge to be replenished when decelerating.

I understand that the way to overcome this is to fit a smart battery to battery charger. Sterling products have led the field in this technology but these units aren't cheap.

The battery to battery charger senses when your leisure battery needs charging and draws the current required from the starter battery to do this. Once the starter battery gets down to 80% then the vans alternator takes over.

https://www.grippatank.co.uk/full-kit-12v-30amp-smart-battery-to-battery-charger


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Thank you for that succinct explanation.

No problem.  I've added another link in the first post.

[Spruce]

You could try putting the headlights on and see if that fools it.

[8weekly]

You could try putting the headlights on and see if that fools it.

Yes, I saw that in a previous thread. But I never understood why. Now it makes sense & might be worth leaving them on whilst working.

[mark g]

I`ve had this problem on my new vivaro.I tried different split charge relays but non worked unless  you turn on the headlights to fool it .Ive just fitted the sterling battery to battery charger which seems to have solved the problem

[Spruce]

I`ve had this problem on my new vivaro.I tried different split charge relays but non worked unless  you turn on the headlights to fool it .Ive just fitted the sterling battery to battery charger which seems to have solved the problem

That's good to know. Which Stering unit did you get?

[mark g]

This one  http://sterling-power.com/collections/battery-to-battery-chargers/products/battery-to-battery-chargers-60-120a-waterproof?variant=882631047

[8weekly]

This one  http://sterling-power.com/collections/battery-to-battery-chargers/products/battery-to-battery-chargers-60-120a-waterproof?variant=882631047

At that price point, it begs the question, is it actually financially worth it if you can run a cable to the van?

[Spruce]

This one  http://sterling-power.com/collections/battery-to-battery-chargers/products/battery-to-battery-chargers-60-120a-waterproof?variant=882631047

At that price point, it begs the question, is it actually financially worth it if you can run a cable to the van?

I agree. I park on the drive way and plug the van in every second night in summer and every night in winter. I wouldn't bother with the expense personally.  I don't do enough mileage to rely on my VSR (Voltage Sensing Relay) to replenish the charge in my battery.

But it maybe the only option for someone who has on-street parking and never knows where that parking will be.

I'm told that the regenerative charging system does charge the starter battery at a higher voltage than the old alternators do, so I would be inclined to remove that SCR you have just fitted.

These vans now use Calcium batteries to cope with the higher charging voltages. Those higher voltages maybe an issue if you have a non maintenance leisure battery.

The Sterling Battery to battery charger accepts the higher alternator charge voltages but dampens them down a little to prevent leisure battery damage.
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[8weekly]

This one  http://sterling-power.com/collections/battery-to-battery-chargers/products/battery-to-battery-chargers-60-120a-waterproof?variant=882631047

At that price point, it begs the question, is it actually financially worth it if you can run a cable to the van?

I agree. I park on the drive way and plug the van in every second night in summer and every night in winter. I wouldn't bother with the expense personally.  I don't do enough mileage to rely on my VSR (Voltage Sensing Relay) to replenish the charge in my battery.

But it maybe the only option for someone who has on-street parking and never knows where that parking will be.

I'm told that the regenerative charging system does charge the starter battery at a higher voltage than the old alternators do, so I would be inclined to remove that SCR you have just fitted.

These vans now use Calcium batteries to cope with the higher charging voltages. Those higher voltages maybe an issue if you have a non maintenance leisure battery.

The Sterling Battery to battery charger accepts the higher alternator charge voltages but dampens them down a little to prevent leisure battery damage.
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I think I'll get the driver to drive with the lights on for the time being and see how he gets on. I paid £170 inc fitting, so I'll at least try to get some value out of it.   

[Oliver @ GrippaTank]

The alternative to the Sterling unit is our system that we have developed: https://www.grippatank.co.uk/full-kit-12v-30amp-smart-battery-to-battery-charger

This is an intelligent system designed to work with brand new vehicles that have smart or temperature sensing alternators. We recommend on fitting this unit to all vehicles registered 2015 onwards. Comes with 7 metres of wiring, trunking, and connectors really to connect your kit up.

[Don Kee]

Good to know, I was going to fit one this weekend!

Lights on whilst driving around me thinks!

[8weekly]

I've just looked at my bill for the split relay. £17 for the unit then two hours to fit! Does that seem excessive? I'd have though 30 minutes max for a mechanic.

[Spruce]

You need to go back to the fitters and complain it isn't working.

Not sure who did it for you but if they supplied the unit then they need to get it to work. If they are auto electrians then they should be aware of this issue with new vehicles and supply the correct product (or at least quote the correct product) to satisfactorily do the job you asked.

[8weekly]

You need to go back to the fitters and complain it isn't working.

Not sure who did it for you but if they supplied the unit then they need to get it to work. If they are auto electrians then they should be aware of this issue with new vehicles and supply the correct product (or at least quote the correct product) to satisfactorily do the job you asked.

It's my local garage. I don't think they had fitted one before the two they did for me - the first of which (2005 Boxer) works perfectly.

[Don Kee]

 May have a solution to this for those that are interested

Spoke to an auto electrician; If you have a single van battery, apparently there is a port already in built for a second battery feed (its incase people do camper conversions)

Apparently its a case of fitting a relay off this port and then wiring in to the secondary battery (leisure battery) etc...ensuring that the feed only kicks in whilst the van is on...

I'm going to see the chap next week, £90 to supply correct relay and fit ( seat need to come out i think, reckons it'll take him an hour and a half...)

Will keep you updated and let you know if it works

[8weekly]

May have a solution to this for those that are interested

Spoke to an auto electrician; If you have a single van battery, apparently there is a port already in built for a second battery feed (its incase people do camper conversions)

Apparently its a case of fitting a relay off this port and then wiring in to the secondary battery (leisure battery) etc...ensuring that the feed only kicks in whilst the van is on...

I'm going to see the chap next week, £90 to supply correct relay and fit ( seat need to come out i think, reckons it'll take him an hour and a half...)

Will keep you updated and let you know if it works

Please do.

[Spruce]

May have a solution to this for those that are interested

Spoke to an auto electrician; If you have a single van battery, apparently there is a port already in built for a second battery feed (its incase people do camper conversions)

Apparently its a case of fitting a relay off this port and then wiring in to the secondary battery (leisure battery) etc...ensuring that the feed only kicks in whilst the van is on...

I'm going to see the chap next week, £90 to supply correct relay and fit ( seat need to come out i think, reckons it'll take him an hour and a half...)

Will keep you updated and let you know if it works

Sounds interesting. 

What I would be thinking is about the higher voltages these new alternators peak that.  So I would be concerned about the type of auxillary battery you could use.

The ordinary lead acid starter battery on the van has been replaced by a calcium battery which will take those high voltages. The advantage with the battery to battery charger (the Sterling one - not sure about the Grippa supplied one) is that the installer programs the unit to suit the battery type its charging.

However, Ford did have to consider a facility to accommodate motor home users or they would loose a revenue stream., The other  point is that Ford are very strong in the Transit tipper market. They use a second dedicated battery to drive the hydraulic ram pump on the tipper. So they must have the facility to charge a second battery.

When a chassis cab is manufactured its final body configuration is usually determined by the purchaser. Most of the body configurations are done by outside suppliers and fitters. Some will need an additional power source, ie tippers, and others won't, ie flat bed.

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[Don Kee]

No luck

Apparently the wiring has been changed, cant do it on the newer customs as the secondary port is no longer there (we think its so you have to go to Ford for a split charger  )

You can do it onthe older ones though. The auto electrician has a 2014 which he has done it to, showed me the port and how they'd changed it on mine)

We've ordered some bits (on the advice of another auto electrician) that means we might be able to wire into the CAM, if this doesn't work though then it might be a no goer as above (I'm not paying £300 plus for a Split charger, I'd rather bench it every other night)

Should have the bits next week so will keep you updated

[Perfect Windows]

Sounds interesting. 

...

When a chassis cab is manufactured its final body configuration is usually determined by the purchaser. Most of the body configurations are done by outside suppliers and fitters. Some will need an additional power source, ie tippers, and others won't, ie flat bed.

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Just skimmed this thread but it makes me think of an answer posted a while ago by you:

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=194738.msg1692039#msg1692039

Is that a possible solution?

Vin

[Spruce]

Sounds interesting. 

...

When a chassis cab is manufactured its final body configuration is usually determined by the purchaser. Most of the body configurations are done by outside suppliers and fitters. Some will need an additional power source, ie tippers, and others won't, ie flat bed.

-

Just skimmed this thread but it makes me think of an answer posted a while ago by you:

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=194738.msg1692039#msg1692039

Is that a possible solution?

Vin

Hi Vin,

Not any more. Euro 6 emission standards have caused manufacturers to take another step forward and have raised the bar. From September 2105 all new vehicles sold must be Euro 6 compliant. So they have introduced smart regenerative braking which is the problem for charging aux leisure batteries.

The idea is that the battery is only charged on deceleration. This means the charge is 'free' as it isn't using engine energy or fuel to charge it.
 The only time your alternator is triggered to charge the battery in driving conditions is when the battery drops to under 80% charged. Once the battery is charged to 80% the vehicle relies on regenerative braking to charge the remaining 20%.

To charge the batteries faster during braking, the new alternators push out a higher voltage, up to 15v. Normal lead acid batteries don't like this high voltage so calcium batteries are used. This is an issue with our leisure batteries.

A battery to battery charger draws current from the main van's battery to charge the leisure battery.  So when the van's battery gets to 80% the van's alternator kicks in to charge the van's battery. The B 2 B charger also reduces the high charging voltages to what the leisure battery is comfortable with.

But this technology isn't cheap.

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[toby richards]

When the van's engine is idling, put a multimeter across the starter battery and see if the starter battery is charging.

Ford state that the Custom has "Other technologies, such as Smart Regenerative Charging, also help make the all-new Transit’s powerful new engines even more fuel-efficient."

If your van has Smart Regenerative Charging then this is the issue. The ECU will only signal the alternator to start charging the van's starter battery when it drops to 80% charged. Ford have left the other 20% of battery charge to be replenished when decelerating.

I understand that the way to overcome this is to fit a smart battery to battery charger. Sterling products have led the field in this technology but these units aren't cheap.

The battery to battery charger senses when your leisure battery needs charging and draws the current required from the starter battery to do this. Once the starter battery gets down to 80% then the vans alternator takes over.

https://www.grippatank.co.uk/full-kit-12v-30amp-smart-battery-to-battery-charger


http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/sterling-pro-batt-ultra-battery-to-battery-charger-12v12v-30a.html

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hi really interested in this thread I have a new transit custom and from the thread it seems that the motor manufacturers only have the regenerative braking on their eco models.As for the higher voltage to charge the battery if you have a normal set u, as in vsr,when it kicks in you will see a voltage of possibly 14 volts anyway so the batteries can take it.I can definitely see the problem if all new vans are charging the batteries from the alternator only when battery drops below  80 per cent

[Perfect Windows]

Hi Vin,

Not any more. Euro 6 emission standards have caused manufacturers to take another step forward and have raised the bar. From September 2105 all new vehicles sold must be Euro 6 compliant. So they have introduced smart regenerative braking which is the problem for charging aux leisure batteries.

...

But this technology isn't cheap.

-

Ah, thank you.  Very clear, thanks.

Vin

[8weekly]

No luck

Apparently the wiring has been changed, cant do it on the newer customs as the secondary port is no longer there (we think its so you have to go to Ford for a split charger  )

You can do it onthe older ones though. The auto electrician has a 2014 which he has done it to, showed me the port and how they'd changed it on mine)

We've ordered some bits (on the advice of another auto electrician) that means we might be able to wire into the CAM, if this doesn't work though then it might be a no goer as above (I'm not paying £300 plus for a Split charger, I'd rather bench it every other night)

Should have the bits next week so will keep you updated

That's a shame. As you say though, unless there's a burning need it's not worth the cost.

[Spruce]

No luck

Apparently the wiring has been changed, cant do it on the newer customs as the secondary port is no longer there (we think its so you have to go to Ford for a split charger  )

You can do it onthe older ones though. The auto electrician has a 2014 which he has done it to, showed me the port and how they'd changed it on mine)

We've ordered some bits (on the advice of another auto electrician) that means we might be able to wire into the CAM, if this doesn't work though then it might be a no goer as above (I'm not paying £300 plus for a Split charger, I'd rather bench it every other night)

Should have the bits next week so will keep you updated

That's a shame. As you say though, unless there's a burning need it's not worth the cost.

This is probably the most sensible view atm for anyone buying a van for window cleaning.

 Hopefully the price of these battery to battery chargers will reduce as the demand for them increases.

Here's a pretty good explanation of the current situation Vin.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0658/7343/files/page17_RegenBraking_d43ed42d-5d14-4b7e-b60a-04a76af7e5ff.pdf?5600843396576371320

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[Spruce]

I have been thinking about this over this weekend.

What happens if you go a heavy duty relay from the van's battery triggered by the ignition to a 12v inverter and then plugged in a 230v intelligent leisure battery charger to charge the aux leisure battery?

The ignition triggered relay would only operate the inverter when the ignition was on and in 99.9% of cases when the engine was running.

[8weekly]

I have been thinking about this over this weekend.

What happens if you go a heavy duty relay from the van's battery triggered by the ignition to a 12v inverter and then plugged in a 230v intelligent leisure battery charger to charge the aux leisure battery?

The ignition triggered relay would only operate the inverter when the ignition was on and in 99.9% of cases when the engine was running.

Why would the intelligent charge system operate differently to an inverter than to a leisure battery? Is that a stupid question?

[Spruce]

I have been thinking about this over this weekend.

What happens if you go a heavy duty relay from the van's battery triggered by the ignition to a 12v inverter and then plugged in a 230v intelligent leisure battery charger to charge the aux leisure battery?

The ignition triggered relay would only operate the inverter when the ignition was on and in 99.9% of cases when the engine was running.

Why would the intelligent charge system operate differently to an inverter than to a leisure battery? Is that a stupid question?

Not sure I totally understand your question @8weekly so please forgive me.

 An inverter would raise the 12v van battery voltage to 230v and then the leisure battery charger would then use that current to charge the leisure battery.

An intelligent battery charger is supposed to charge a leisure battery more fully than a standard car battery charger, although a standard battery charger would work as well.

The inverter will draw current from the starter battery when its on so wouldn't rely on the regenerative charging cycle of new vehicles. Hence the reason for an ignition controlled relay to trigger the inverter.

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