Would You Restore This Too?

« **on:** July 26, 2009, 09:04:26 pm »

Would you restore this leather?

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #1 on:** July 27, 2009, 04:19:18 am »

How do you like it?

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #2 on:** July 27, 2009, 05:15:17 am »

Nice job on an Aniline wax pull-up without converting it to a "Pigmented" type leather, and decreasing it's initial value and luxuriousness.

Modern technology is getting better.

I'd like to see plenty of comments on this to see what the Brits; think.

Us descendants of transportees still like to view our Motherlands opinion.

Ooroo,

Shorty.

« **Reply #3 on:** July 27, 2009, 01:14:54 pm »

I know nothing about leather cleaning and restoration but if I were the paying Customer from what I can tell by the pictures I'd be happy with the result.

How long did this take you?

« **Reply #4 on:** July 27, 2009, 02:36:12 pm »

Quote from: Ian Griffiths on July 27, 2009, 01:14:54 pm

I know nothing about leather cleaning and restoration but if I were the paying Customer from what I can tell by the pictures I'd be happy with the result.

How long did this take you?

he might of charged £20,000, would you still be happy?

derek

« **Reply #5 on:** July 27, 2009, 02:50:37 pm »

Yep, happy that I could afford such a service and even happier that I was so foolishly minted

« **Reply #6 on:** July 27, 2009, 03:26:56 pm »

Its a really good job Roger, you obviously perfected a skill and have some wonderful products.
How long did it take?
and I notice it is in a "workshop" enviroment. I dont even have a garage, and to hire a place I would need lots of those jobs to be able to justify the cost.

« **Reply #7 on:** July 27, 2009, 03:35:38 pm »

Nice one Roger yep be happy with that if it was mine. Don't know if i would have taken it on though

CHEERS TONY

« **Reply #8 on:** July 27, 2009, 04:38:45 pm »

Did you aniline spray it Roger?

« **Reply #9 on:** July 27, 2009, 05:07:03 pm »

Ian,
I do not know exactly how long it takes.
But I know the degreasing takes the most time.

Derek,
We have debated about prices on the other side of the pond and US$2.5K is a fair price.

Joe,
If I have the opportunity to do this job, it would be better than what you see (experience does count).
Example the brass tarnishes need be remove to make them sparkle.
The degreasing result could be better; a mistake was done in the degreasing process that hampered subsequent removal.
The skill you mentioned is a first-timer’s skill, someone in USA done it, not me.
Yes! Leather is a lucrative add-on.
Just like professional rug cleaning, away from the customer, so that you can take your time to enjoy with music and beer at the same time.

Tony,
Most of these jobs I do.
I do while sitting down on roller caster chairs.
We are selling our skills not just brute forces.
When we reach 50 all those heavy dragging, lifting, pushing cannot continue on a daily basis - that’s why leather.

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #10 on:** July 27, 2009, 05:24:45 pm »

tihson,

Just like “Sherlock Holmes”, while others are concentrating on the body; you are looking at tell-tale sign.

Yes, it is by spraying (rubbing-in gives blotchiness or patchiness).

In this new Aniline System three version of the same color dyes are used to produce such even coverage with the beauty of depth.

The price is the same, usage the same but each version perform different task to compliment each other.

1st Spray uses a Transparent Aniline Penetrating Dyestuff.
2nd Spray uses a Transparent Aniline Coating Dyestuff.
3rd Spray uses a Translucent Aniline Coating Dyestuff.

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #11 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:04:29 pm »

It looked similar to the one I done, thats how I knew it had been sprayed.

« **Reply #12 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:27:34 pm »

Looks good!

Keep it up!

Cheers!

« **Reply #13 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:33:10 pm »

Wish Vancouver was a bit closer to Bridge of Weir

« **Reply #14 on:** July 27, 2009, 08:01:12 pm »

You’ll be sad!

‘Cos I’m gonna cream them off if its that close!

« **Reply #15 on:** July 27, 2009, 08:09:58 pm »

The products are available to do this in the UK, they have been for some time.
Matt used them to do his restoration. We may be holding workshop days soon for this process. Will keep you posted.
At the moment we are testing water based aniline dyes which are proving much better for colour penetration than the solvent ones. Tinted Finishes can also be used on these which makes them harder wearing for future use.

« **Reply #16 on:** July 27, 2009, 10:55:48 pm »

See and compare carefully the two sets of pictures cushions on the Creases and Wrinkles

The difference is that the former has undergone a structure-conditioning - fatliquoring.

There is also a video from the Discovery Channel that might interest you too - fatliquoring!

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #17 on:** July 27, 2009, 11:17:58 pm »

i've got a pigmented chair at ours now ready for recolour work, its looking a bit limp in places, its pigmented, can this be er! er! er! un-limped?
derek

« **Reply #18 on:** July 27, 2009, 11:26:04 pm »

As long as it is absorbent - fatliquor it!

You will see the leather structure fatten-up!

Post a picture and help will be on the way!

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #19 on:** July 27, 2009, 11:34:34 pm »

knock yourself out rodge
derek

« **Reply #20 on:** July 27, 2009, 11:49:16 pm »

See these pictures - Fatliquoring Micro-Pigment (semi-Aniline) Leathers.

Fatliquoring to restore the leather structure integrity before restoring the leather finishes.

Thus double restoration: 1st Strata, the leather structure and 2nd strata, the leather finishes.

#1) Spray-on Fatliquoring.

#2) Spread-out Fatliquoring.

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #21 on:** July 28, 2009, 07:49:59 am »

Derek
Remember it is impossible to re fatliquor leather once it has been through the retanning process.

This has been checked out with many tanners over the years.

When tanners and leather chemists speak about 'conditioning' they are talking about the level of moisture in the leather not the level of fat liquors.

You have a finished leather there and anything you apply will not get through to the leather anyway. Re hydrate with moisture before you begin your recolour with BRIT and you will get good results.

« **Reply #22 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:24:12 am »

Hang on a sec Judy.................if you can rehydrate ( absorb moisture into the leather ) then you can re fatliquor ( absorb fatliquor into the leather structure )

« **Reply #23 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:38:23 am »

Fatliquors are a mixture of oils/waxes/fats etc. used to replace the 'natural oils' removed from the hide during tanning. This is done during the retanning process.
These mixtures cannot be absorbed into the leather particularly through a leather finish. If Rogers fatliquor is water based then all that is doing any work is the moisture.

Transpiration (the natural flow of moisture back and forth through leather) has to take place otherwise it is not leather. Finishes have to allow for this process but they do not allow the absorption of fats/oils etc.

Every tannery has its own carefully balanced fatliquor mix which is used during the re tanning process. If leather could be re fatliquored you would need to know the exact mix of these fats/oils to be able to do this process otherwise it would unbalance the oils/fats that were already in there.

Hope this helps

« **Reply #24 on:** July 28, 2009, 06:37:42 pm »

Quote from: robert meldrum on July 28, 2009, 08:24:12 am

Hang on a sec Judy.................if you can rehydrate ( absorb moisture into the leather ) then you can re fatliquor ( absorb fatliquor into the leather structure )

You’re right!

"Can Hydrate = Can Re-Fatliquor"

Hydrator pH 3.3 > Fatliquor pH 5.0

See this fatliquor looks like fresh milk is spray-on after hydrating.

Fatliquor just like car engine oil - lubricates the fibers makes it flexible, soft with strength will eventually diminishes by evaporation - just like your engine oil, requires top-up!

Hard to understand what is fatliquoring - like to see a video from the Discovery Channel if it is allow here?

#1) Hydrate with a pH 3.3 Hydrator prior to spray-on Fatliquoring with a pH 5.0 Fatliquor.

#2) Spread it to penetrate (thereafter acidify the protein fiber below the leather isoelectric point with a rinse pH 3.0 helps hydrogen-bond the fats and the oils with no sticky residue on the leather surface)

#3) To achieve extra softness natural slow drying is preferred.

#4) Restoring the leather structure to its original flexibility, softness and strength prior to restoring its aesthetic finishes for sight, feel and scent makes sense. This double restoration (structure & finishes) carries a 3 year warranty.

#5) Now, see those cracks one more time - no more cracks for the next 3 years (warranty)

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #25 on:** July 28, 2009, 07:17:04 pm »

roger
your advice was to fatliquer the chair, and now your saying rehydrate the chair and then fatliquer. :

which one is it?

also if you rehydrate the leather first, how will the leather be able to absorb the fat liquer?

questions i need answering before i investigate fatliquering some more.
derek

« **Reply #26 on:** July 28, 2009, 07:50:08 pm »

Quote from: Leather Training and Technical on July 28, 2009, 08:38:23 am

If Rogers fatliquor is water based then all that is doing any work is the moisture.

The moisture that works prior to fatliquoring is the pH 3.3 Hydrator - that plum up the leather structure and separates the inter-fibrillary spaces.

Since it has no fats and oils, its empty water and when it’s dry again the fiber collapse and stick together - that will stiffen the leather further and when flex will crack.

Yes!
fatliquor5.0 is waterbased micro-emulsion - it means that the oil and fat molecules are encased by water droplets, that’s why you see all these whites like natural fresh milk.

When the fats and oils is hydrogen-bond with the protein fibers (just like magnet, unlike poles attracts) the water breaks free and wicks up.

This water can be squeeze out dry, but where are the oils and fats?

These oils and fats coats these millions of tiny fibril connecting hinges - to lubricate them so that the leather structure as a whole is soft, supple and strengthen for practical use.

This later water from the fatliquor breaks free and contribute its work by bringing out the foreign suspended soil particulates to the leather surface to be either wipe off when damp or erase-off when crispy dry.

Think carefully!

Do not make a mistake!

Not all water is good for leathers - it has to be leather-safe like pH 3.3 for the hydrator and the pH 3 for the rinse.

Leather-Safe first, then you wouldn’t be sorry when comes to sensitive leathers.

Why do most leather fashion garments cleaning instructions state: "DRY CLEAN ONLY"?

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #27 on:** July 28, 2009, 07:51:22 pm »

Roger, Derek's chair is pigmented so coated and has little absorbancy you said that the picture above is semi aniline which is the opposite will pigmented leather not take fatlaquer so well?

Shaun

« **Reply #28 on:** July 28, 2009, 07:53:47 pm »

Do you fatlaquer everything you clean Roger?

Shaun

« **Reply #29 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:00:03 pm »

Quote from: Shaun_Ashmore on July 28, 2009, 07:51:22 pm

Roger, Derek's chair is pigmented so coated and has little absorbancy you said that the picture above is semi aniline which is the opposite will pigmented leather not take fatlaquer so well?

Shaun

Look!

What is this brown chair above that is drinking up the fatliquor?

By sight identification, what is the leather-type?

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #30 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:08:29 pm »

So when we get creases in leather upholstery (which is what we do not clothes) we could/should clean the leather then apply a hydrator and then apply fatlquor which should remove all creases?

Shaun

« **Reply #31 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:09:11 pm »

surely its just drinking it up through those mammoth cracks and possibly not through the pigment!
derek

« **Reply #32 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:13:33 pm »

Derek won't the capillary action draw the fatlaquor into the leather?

Shaun

« **Reply #33 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:14:42 pm »

Quote from: robert meldrum on July 28, 2009, 08:24:12 am

Hang on a sec Judy.................if you can rehydrate ( absorb moisture into the leather ) then you can re fatliquor ( absorb fatliquor into the leather structure )

>>>Do you fatlaquer everything you clean Roger?

>>>Shaun

--------------

Yes!

Every leather that is absorbent, I will fatliquor5.0 it, be it Nubuck, Suede, Woolskin or Hair-on.

Fatliquor is the lifeblood of leathers - replacing the blood that once run through the skin or hide when the animals were alive.

As Robert said...

Quote

"(absorb moisture into the leather ) then you can re fatliquor ( absorb fatliquor into the leather structure )"

Remember, fatliquor5.0 is for the leather structure 1st strata.

The 2nd strata finishes do not like the fatliquor5.0 to fool around on top.

But loves to embrace "Leather Scent Feel Conditioners" with pride that enhance the finishes with extra feel and the natural classic leather scent that charms.

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #34 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:15:57 pm »

whoosh.
what

caterpillars, are they made of leather.
derek

« **Reply #35 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:18:49 pm »

Only their shoes Derek.

Shaun

« **Reply #36 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:21:38 pm »

fk me, cost a fortune

funny thing today, i was in sports direct buying my 6 monthly pair of trainers and sore a box on the floor with.....
adidas trainers, left 1 size 6 and right 1 size 8. £5 to clear. what are the chances eh!
derek

« **Reply #37 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:22:01 pm »

Roger on Picture 4 is that now recoloured because the cracks have gone but the clour is replaced?

Also will doing the re hydration and fat laquor remove all creases?

Shaun

« **Reply #38 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:26:16 pm »

Derek when you take your lot to Sports Direct I bet it's the same thing, Mr.Ashley will be rubbing his hands think that Derek the catapilla has come and is paying him his lost money from his Newcastle investment.

Shaun

« **Reply #39 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:26:29 pm »

Quote from: Derek West on July 28, 2009, 07:17:04 pm

roger
your advice was to fatliquer the chair, and now your saying rehydrate the chair and then fatliquer. :
which one is it?

also if you rehydrate the leather first, how will the leather be able to absorb the fat liquer?

questions i need answering before i investigate fatliquering some more.
derek

--------------------

The fatliquoring system comprises of:

1) Pre-fatliquoring - use a pH 3.3 hydrator

2) Fatliquoring - use a pH 5.0 fatliquor

3) Post-fatliquoring - use a pH 3.0 rinse

1) & 3) are optional (it has its reasons to be there to delivery the very best result of fatliquoring).

Think systematic!

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #40 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:36:45 pm »

starting to sound like a grease song

derek

« **Reply #41 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:37:06 pm »

Roger I like the systematic approach and look forward to knowing what you did to the brown pigmented chair, did you re dye it in the process above?

I'm guessing that you cleaned it then applied pre Fat L then Fat L then post Fat L then colour and then apply finish?

Shaun

« **Reply #42 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:40:50 pm »

Quote from: Shaun_Ashmore on July 28, 2009, 08:22:01 pm

Roger on Picture 4 is that now recoloured because the cracks have gone but the clour is replaced?

Also will doing the re hydration and fat laquor remove all creases?

Shaun

------

These pictures show how creases are removed:

#1) Leather scotched, too near to a fireplace!

#2) Hydrated by a pH 3.3 Hydrator

#3) Stretch by leatherTool6 after both hydrating and fatliquoring

#4) Do you see the creases?

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #43 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:42:32 pm »

so you wet it and stretch it, basically.
derek

« **Reply #44 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:59:40 pm »

Quote from: Derek West on July 28, 2009, 08:42:32 pm

so you wet it and stretch it, basically.
derek

------------------

Basically, you need to think of fatliquoring as a “system”.

You are the leather expert, is the “pre-fatliquoring” with a pH 3.3 hydrator necessary - you decide!

When you fatliquor prior to restoring the 2nd leather strata finishes, you decide how to ensure that this fatliquor5.0 does not fool around on top of it, you decide whether the post-fatliquoring with a pH 3.0 helps!

When it says and does not work, trash it together with the one that cons you too!

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #45 on:** July 28, 2009, 09:04:37 pm »

I'm just wondering how far the system will go meaning that can I offer the service as a crease removal service?

Shauh

« **Reply #46 on:** July 28, 2009, 10:24:56 pm »

Yes!

Just make sure that whatever you offer, you can deliver it too!

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #47 on:** July 28, 2009, 10:46:25 pm »

I agree with not over selling but based on your products I can remove all wrinkles and creases?

Shaun

« **Reply #48 on:** July 28, 2009, 10:56:25 pm »

surely a simple test, 2 pieces of dried out leather, soak one in water and the other in fat liquer and see which becomes most supple and stays most supple over time.
i shall try it, unless someone can tell me if my plan has flaws?

any know where i can get fat liquer from, and if bens reading this, whats your view on fat liquer?
derek

« **Reply #49 on:** July 28, 2009, 11:00:08 pm »

Derek don't you drink fat liquor is it from Netto?

Shaun

« **Reply #50 on:** July 29, 2009, 05:03:55 am »

Quote from: Leather Training and Technical on July 28, 2009, 08:38:23 am

Remember it is impossible to re fatliquor leather once it has been through the retanning process.

------------

Kindly explain what is “the retanning process”, and why the impossibility to re-fatliquor thereafter.

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #51 on:** July 29, 2009, 07:48:18 am »

Roger I am surprised that you do not understand the retanning process.

Once a hide has been through the 'tanning' process it becomes leather. Processes beyond this including the addition of fatliquors is known as the 'retanning' process.

This process is variable depending on what the leather is to be used for and therefore establishing the exact formulation for the fatliquor used for one particular leather is not possible.

The American Leather Chemists Association have the following to say regarding fatliquors:

" Fatliquor is not volatile nor migratory, so leather is not going to lose it.
However, along with the fatliquor, the other critical factor is moisture. Any leather is going to lose its moisture in a not car. Although leather seems dry, it is not. Of course too much moisture quickly leads to mold and mildew problems, so soaking it down is not reasonable. Ideally, exposure to humid atmosphere will help balance the effect of over drying on hot days. Leather is very dynamic with respect to moisture content, meaning moisture comes and goes easily under normal circumstances...."

Therefore fatliquor does not evaporate or go away and there is no need to replace it.

Hope this helps

« **Reply #52 on:** July 29, 2009, 08:27:14 am »

Quote from: Leather Training and Technical on July 29, 2009, 07:48:18 am

Therefore fatliquor does not evaporate or go away and there is no need to replace it.

---

Well you are well connected, with all the tanners and leather chemist to consult from, should share more with us, and I appreciate.

Could you kindly explain to us what is “Spue” or “Spew”?

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #53 on:** July 29, 2009, 08:49:57 am »

Roger
I see where you are coming from but I think you are a little confused.

Spew
When the fat liquor introduced during the re-tanning process is destabilised and rises to the surface of the leather creating a white haze or film on the surface.
This will look dry but have a greasy/fatty feel to it. If it is cleaned off it will almost certainly return.
Requires a stabilising product to re balance the fats.

Spewing is generally only seen in new leathers and is caused by the destabilisation of the fat liquors by changes in humidity etc. during transportation. This problem requires the resatabilisation of the fats using a special product (a stabiliser not a fatliquor) and once done with the correct product will not reoccur.

Replacing the fatliquor is not necessary at this stage (and would be impossible). The 'spewing' condition does not occur due to age or wear it is due to slight incorrect chemical balance during the retanning process and then this is exacerbated by the conditions as described above.

« **Reply #54 on:** July 29, 2009, 09:22:22 am »

Yes!

I am confused!

Please clarify

Quote
“Therefore fatliquor does not evaporate or go away and there is no need to replace it.”

If fatliquor does nor evaporate or go away, why the need for products such as Spew Remover, etc. etc.

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #55 on:** July 29, 2009, 10:58:21 am »

I am also confused here, but that's not hard to do.

What I find confusing is this:

"Fatliquor is not volatile nor migratory, so leather is not going to lose it."

If this is truly the case, why does leather appear to go dry and hard, then gets brittle and finally crack.?

I fail to understand why the leather goes hard if these fatliqours are still inside the leather, doing their job and keeping the leather soft and supple.

One other thing that I fail to understand is the use of leather conditioners and protection creams.

If these products are not getting through to the leather because the pigment is stopping them, and we are telling the custards that they are, are we not lying and ripping the custards off.?

To me, this has been a very fascinating thread and is full of a lot of good information.

How will a simple person such as I, determine which information is good and which is not.?

I am very much looking forward to more dialogue on this subject.

Thanks,

Shorty.

« **Reply #56 on:** July 29, 2009, 11:03:45 am »

Quote from: Roger Koh on July 29, 2009, 09:22:22 am

Yes!

I am confused!

Please clarify

Quote
“Therefore fatliquor does not evaporate or go away and there is no need to replace it.”

If fatliquor does nor evaporate or go away, why the need for products such as Spew Remover, etc. etc.

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

surely spew remover is needed after the retanning process on new leather, when there is detableisation. thats how i read it anyhoo.
derek

« **Reply #57 on:** July 29, 2009, 12:43:10 pm »

Good post Shorty.

Would be great if holes being dug were abandoned and the argument became a discussion. Don't get me wrong I know very well that this kind of exchange is a great learning tool

« **Reply #58 on:** July 29, 2009, 02:32:39 pm »

Yes very well put Shorty some people come on and share ask questions though and others just come on and seem to contradict whatever is being said when it comes to leather I can't understand why :

:

Cheers Tony

« **Reply #59 on:** July 29, 2009, 04:37:44 pm »

Quote from: Leather Training and Technical on July 29, 2009, 07:48:18 am

The American Leather Chemists Association have the following to say regarding fatliquors:

Fatliquor is not volatile nor migratory, so leather is not going to lose it.
Therefore fatliquor does not evaporate or go away and there is no need to replace it.

----------------------

So, what is this white haze or film you see on this old brown leather surface?

Please clarify?

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #60 on:** July 29, 2009, 06:26:27 pm »

Quote

Spewing is generally only seen in new leathers and is caused by the destabilisation of the fat liquors

As I said Roger it is 'generally' only seen in new leathers. Spewing is a specific problem with a specific treatment and as Derek pointed out is due to a certain set of circumstances. Even in these circumstances we do not replace the fat liquors we only stabilise them. Leather that has been correctly retanned and handled will not have a spew problem (otherwise all leather would have a white haze on it).

The powder on the old sofa could be anything from talcum powder to spewing and is difficult to tell without having the piece to examine. It could be salt crystals coming out if the items have been wet.

Shorty

Quote

Fatliquor is not volatile nor migratory, so leather is not going to lose it.
However, along with the fatliquor, the other critical factor is moisture. Any leather is going to lose its moisture in a not car. Although leather seems dry, it is not. Of course too much moisture quickly leads to mold and mildew problems, so soaking it down is not reasonable. Ideally, exposure to humid atmosphere will help balance the effect of over drying on hot days. Leather is very dynamic with respect to moisture content, meaning moisture comes and goes easily under normal circumstances...."

as you can see here the important factor is moisture - water. Most fat liquors contain water and leather itself has a high water content. When this level is depleted that is when leather becomes hard and brittle - it is due to the loss of the moisture in the fat liquors not the loss of the fat liquors themselves. So moisture content is the important thing to consider (when "conditioning" leather). The use of 'conditioning' products that contain oils waxes etc do not benefit the leather and are a myth. Protectors on the other hand (when water based) help protect leather surfaces from dirt and staining and help balance the moisture content at the same time. Oils and waxes do not protect leather (you can test this yourself). Dirt damages leather finishes and this is what a protector guards against particularly on coated leathers.
I take it you are still using LM products and this is certainly the philosophy they have always advocated.

« **Reply #61 on:** July 29, 2009, 07:04:27 pm »

Quote from: Leather Training and Technical on July 29, 2009, 06:26:27 pm

Quote
Spewing is generally only seen in new leathers and is caused by the destabilisation of the fat liquors
As I said Roger it is 'generally' only seen in new leathers. Spewing is a specific problem with a specific treatment and as Derek pointed out is due to a certain set of circumstances. Even in these circumstances we do not replace the fat liquors we only stabilise them.

----------

Quote
"Even in these circumstances we do not replace the fat liquors we only stabilise them."

All the while, I am not talking of “replace” the fatliquor.

I say that fatliquor diminishes just like auto engine oils that need top-up or replenish.

So, how about situation like this?

Stabilize it?

or

Replenish it?

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #62 on:** July 29, 2009, 07:33:22 pm »

Shorty the protection cream is to add an invisible layer on the leather, pigmented or other wise whether it absorbs into the leather and makes the leather less absorbant or on pigmented works like a floor seal and aids against soil attaching to the surface. (I think you know that already you monkey!!!)

Shaun

PS Roger I have an Aniline footstool which is getting cracked if you send me a small sample and directions I will show everyone my results and we can all judge from an independant stance, what do you think?

shaun_ashmore@lineone.net

« **Reply #63 on:** July 30, 2009, 05:19:03 am »

Hi all, interesting discussion you have going here.
Part of the problem, I believe, is semantics and a lack of universally accepted definitions.

Words like:

Humectant
Rejuvenator
Neetsfoot oil
Fatliquor
Hide cream
Conditioner
Moisturizer
Protectors

Then we have oil pull-ups that presumably allow moisture movement ( transpiration ) but also repel water but easily water mark.

Technology marches on and as Judy pointed out some are testing water based dyes, while others have already developed them and replaced the solvent based ones. One wonders how solvent based dyes affect the fatliquor situation in that leather.
Leather Master does not appear to have come out with anything new in ages and just because a traditionalist says it must be so does not make it completely true.

We do know that under some circumstances fatliqours can spew to the surface and do we really think that through a piece of Leathers life that everything remains "stable" ?

Quote from: Leather Training and Technical on July 28, 2009, 08:38:23 am

Transpiration (the natural flow of moisture back and forth through leather) has to take place otherwise it is not leather.

Finishes have to allow for this process but they do not allow the absorption of fats/oils etc.

Every tannery has its own carefully balanced fatliquor mix which is used during the re tanning process. If leather could be re fatliquored you would need to know the exact mix of these fats/oils to be able to do this process otherwise it would unbalance the oils/fats that were already in there.

Judy, please look at the picture that Roger posted at the beginning of this thread, you do see all of the dark oily spots on the sofa. How do you square this with your statement that
"Finishes have to allow for this process but they do not allow the absorption of fats/oils etc."?

That sofa sure looks like it absorbed a lot of oil.

Despite all of the learned comments made here, all I can say is that I have used LM's Leather Vital, Leather Institute's Conditioner and Protector, Leatherique's Rejuvinator and various other Hide creams and conditioners along with Roger's Fatliquor. I don't really care what it is or what you call it but it certainly has been far more effective in side by side comparisons than anything else that I've ever tried over the years on primarily furniture leather.

cheers Tony

« **Reply #64 on:** July 30, 2009, 07:49:51 am »

Tony
We appreciate your comments

Yes it is all about semantics and communication and about how posts are read.

When we speak of leather not absorbing fats and oils we are speaking of the use of 'conditioners' that contain fats and oils. Because leather is absorbent oils will eventually be absorbed into the leather as in the case of body oils, but this is over a long period of time.
When people use 'conditioners' containing oils and waxes they generally assume they are being immediately soaked into the leather. These waxes and oils are not and will sit on the surface for a long time and as they sit on the surface they gather more dirt etc which damages the finish.

Body oils contain more acids and therefore would be more aggressive and able to soak through finishes. We have seen the damage that body oils do to leather so why would you want to add more oils to a piece of leather furniture.

Terminology does seem to be the problem here. Rogers use of the words re fat liquoring are what we are questioning. Re fat liquoring of leather is not possible according to our sources (tanners, technologists, scientists etc.). As Rogers product is water based (as is Vital etc) then it is this moisture that is doing the work not fat liquors.

Just to clarify Tony the 'dyes' we are testing are water based aniline dyes, we have been using water based pigments since before we were in the USA.

Cheers
Judy

« **Reply #65 on:** July 30, 2009, 07:23:35 pm »

Quote from: Leather Training and Technical on July 30, 2009, 07:49:51 am

Yes it is all about semantics and communication and about how posts are read.

Terminology does seem to be the problem here. Rogers use of the words re fat liquoring are what we are questioning. Re fat liquoring of leather is not possible according to our sources (tanners, technologists, scientists etc.). As Rogers product is water based (as is Vital etc) then it is this moisture that is doing the work not fat liquors.
Cheers
Judy

-------------------------

We can explain how this fatliquor5.0 works by omitting the word “re fat liquoring”.

Simply said:

Before softening and strengthening dried-up leathers, it is best to hydrate it.

When hydrating, a leather-safe pH 3.3 hydrator is preferred to separate the leather fibrils that stick together and to relax them too.

While the leather is damp, a pH 5.0 fatliquor is introduced to replenish what’s diminished.

Strays milky micro-emulsion fatliquor5.0 that remains on leather surface is further charged with a pH 3.0 acidifier for a more effective hydrogen-bonding between the protein fibers cationic (+ve) with the anionic (-ve) fatliquor5.0.

Slow drying is preferred for extra softness.

Wicked-up suspended soil particulates can be wiped-off at drying intervals and crispy dries soil particulates can be erase-off with either a leather or nubuck eraser.

When leather is dry staking, massaging or stretching will make the leather as soft as you wish.

That’s how fatliquor5.0 works - Helps to keep leather at its optimum physical performance and prevent premature ageing!

Hope you like it better without the use of this “re fat liquoring” Terminology!

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #66 on:** July 30, 2009, 07:37:59 pm »

Very well explained.
If others have a different view that is fine we can all make our own minds up If given the information from the experts in leather be it Ben, Roger or Judy I know when it comes to carpet cleaning methods there are many different view points. Who is wright or wrong

Tony

« **Reply #67 on:** July 31, 2009, 07:19:53 pm »

Quote from: Shaun_Ashmore on July 29, 2009, 07:33:22 pm

PS Roger I have an Aniline footstool which is getting cracked if you send me a small sample and directions I will show everyone my results and we can all judge from an independant stance, what do you think?

shaun_ashmore@lineone.net

------------

Let's see what you have first?

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #68 on:** August 01, 2009, 03:01:34 am »

Quote from: Leather Training and Technical on July 29, 2009, 06:26:27 pm

The use of 'conditioning' products that contain oils waxes etc do not benefit the leather and are a myth. .

---

Would you kindly share with us your understanding of "Wax Pull-ups" and "Oil Pull-ups" and how would you condition them as to revive them to their original Pull-Up Effect, please?

Roger Koh
Leather Doctor®

« **Reply #69 on:** August 01, 2009, 02:22:55 pm »

It would be interesting to get our other leather expert's point of view. Ben from furniture clinic

« **Reply #70 on:** August 01, 2009, 10:20:27 pm »

If Ben has any sense and I know he has he will leave this alone !

Judy has shown in this discussion that she has a greater knowledge than I realised, but Roger has the the EVIDENCE to back up everything he says

I've been to both LTT and FC and both were good courses, but I'd love to have spent a couple of days with Roger in what appears to be a very busy workshop.

« **Reply #71 on:** August 02, 2009, 09:00:31 am »

Evidence?