john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« on: October 19, 2012, 02:24:45 pm »

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXn5gL3AaBs


  Posted in another thread by TonyBrowning  ...  
  Figured i'd give it its own thread as Cleansmart have clearly gone to great effort making this video with perhaps independent  lab testing ?





 
  This is Ashbys original video ...  
  I think Ashbys credibility is now hovering around zero although i still like the Enforcer body design and series configuration may have its advantages under load .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1Elgr0d8Qw

  

    

AshWhite

  • Posts: 3427
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2012, 02:35:48 pm »
I like the 'lab technicians' combo of Adidas 3-stripes, and white lab coat.
Carpet Cleaning http://www.floors2show.co.uk
Google Adwords Management http://www.pagecrest.co.uk

jim mca

  • Posts: 827
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2012, 03:53:12 pm »
Well done Matt hope this can put a stop to suppliers misleading claims

derek west

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2012, 05:59:55 pm »
would make a nice video session for the next TACCA day, lets do an independant test on all the top portables. wonder how many suppliers would be brave enough to let us test there machines against there competitors?, and while we are there we can settle mine and billys blowers once and for all ;D

AshWhite

  • Posts: 3427
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2012, 06:09:36 pm »
Why do you need the manufacturers permission? I'm sure there's enough members to make available one of each type of machine?
Carpet Cleaning http://www.floors2show.co.uk
Google Adwords Management http://www.pagecrest.co.uk

derek west

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2012, 06:16:42 pm »
Why do you need the manufacturers permission? I'm sure there's enough members to make available one of each type of machine?
we don't need permission, but it would be interesting to see who would be confident enough to say "yes", and lend us a machine. i know mat would.

JandS

  • Posts: 4238
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2012, 10:04:34 am »
So what's the difference?
They both did the tests and came out with different figures.
Who's to know which set of figures are true.

John
Impossible done straight away, miracles can take a little longer.

Tony Gill Carpet Smart

  • Posts: 1254
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2012, 11:03:05 am »
The only way to get true results is from a totally independant test, manufactures always give results which favor their own products.
STAY YOUNG HAVE FUN BE HAPPY xx
www.carpetcleanersbridlington.co.uk

Billy Russell

  • Posts: 1620
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2012, 01:12:41 pm »
To be fair to Matt, he did say he is more than happy to have his machine independently tested, fair play to him, will any of the others do that? not saying they won't just wondering

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2012, 02:30:10 pm »
So what's the difference?
They both did the tests and came out with different figures.
Who's to know which set of figures are true.



Cleansmarts test results are what we expect based on the motor manufactures data for the motors used and the known configuration of the motors .
Ashbys figures on the other hand make no sense .

The Airflex Turbo has three 1400w Lamb motors in Parallel  ( about 100cfm and 137" lift each )
So allow perhaps up to 5% +/-  difference between individual motors and look at cleansmarts figures .
Three 100's is 300cfm ... and because u get the lift of one motor in parallel , 10 hg is equal to the 137" lift .
So the figures are exactly what you'd expect .


Cleansmart figures for the Enforcer are also what you'd predict ....
If they used two lamb motors in series you'd get 100cfm and 220" lift
because they use an Electro with 117cfm , boosted by a second weak motor , they get 17hg ( 230" lift and 117cfm )


I would like to see the Storm tested  , i'd say 280cfm and 9HG   ....
less than the Turbo   :)

from edge2edge

  • Posts: 1507
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2012, 03:18:14 pm »
Hi Guys surely its all about trust as both machines really suck well(not too technical there boys) .I have just got a nearly new storm and spoke to Matt(cleansmart) who says he is happy to cover the warranty although its 2 months old when i bought it secondhand.In my book that makes him a guy i can trust and having read what other people say about him and his setup then its a no brainer as i really think the guy wants to give the best service possible.TOP MAN.........................Alan(swindon)

Tony_C

  • Posts: 28
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2012, 03:40:05 pm »
So what's the difference?
They both did the tests and came out with different figures.
Who's to know which set of figures are true.

John
[/quote

This is the email that Matt sent out. I know who I believe.



 
From: Cleansmart Ltd.
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 10:50 AM
To: Tony Clark
Subject: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer Vacuum Strength Test - The Real Results
 
 
Hi,
 
Matt here from Cleansmart.
 
A few weeks ago Ashbys Cleaning Equipment published a video on YouTube showing their Enforcer machine and our Airflex Turbo.
 
This video shows grossly incorrect data readings for both the Ashbys Enforcer and the Airflex Turbo machines and is therefore very misleading.
 
We have produced our own video to show the real figures for both machines (I'll provide a link to that in a moment).
 
We are also in the process of registering a complaint about Ashby's video with the Advertising Standards Authority. As part of that process I have written a letter to Ashbys which is reproduced below.
 
I don't like having to produce a video showing a competitors machine or having to send an email out like this. However the video Ashbys have produced is very convincing so I feel I must defend my machine and my business.
 
Here's the letter sent to Ashbys:
 
 
Dear Mr Ashby,
 
I am writing to you about a video Ashbys published recently on YouTube which compares airflow and waterlift on the Ashby's Enforcer machine and our own Airflex Turbo. This video shows grossly incorrect data readings for both the Ashbys Enforcer and the Airflex Turbo machines and is therefore very misleading.
 
We intend to register a complaint about this video with the Advertising Standards Authority. As part of the Advertising Standards Authority's complaints procedure, we are required to register our complaint with you first, which is the purpose of this letter.
 
Point 1
 
These are the airflow and water lift readings for both machines (the airflow has been checked using two different meters):
 
Ashbys Enforcer fitted with 1 x 3-stage motor and 1 x heavy duty 3-stage motor (Electro motors)
 
Airflow 117CFM
Mercury lift 17"
Airwatts 3179
 
Airflex Turbo fitted with 3 x 3-stage heavy duty vac motors (Lamb Ametek)
 
Airflow 305CFM
Mercury lift 10.25"
Airwatts 5023
 
The Airflex Turbo is therefore approximately 58% more powerful in terms of airwatts.
 
We are quite prepared to send both machines for independent testing to support our complaint if needs be.
 
Point 2
 
The Omega flowmeter you are using in the video is not suitable for measuring airflow under vacuum. We have contacted Omega, who have confirmed in writing that the meter is 'not suitable for use under vacuum'. Our Airflex Mini machine (which also has vac motors mounted in series) produces around 100CFM airflow, however when we tested the Omega flowmeter on this machine it gave a reading of 180CFM.
 
Point 3
 
The Airflex Turbo in your video appears to be leaking air, in need of repair or perhaps the gate valve is not fully closed: Both the waterlift and airflow figures you quote in the video are grossly incorrect.
 
Point 4
 
You describe both machines as being standard off-the-shelf models, but in reality you are testing what appears to be a brand new Enforcer machine against an Airflex Turbo that is over a year old. Even without the 3 very strong points above, that is hardly a fair test.
 
I request you remove this video from YouTube immediately and refrain from this kind of underhand and misleading behaviour in future. Ashbys has positioned itself as an expert on airflow and waterlift, so I find it hard to believe that you are not aware of the correct performance figures for 'in series' and 'in paralell' vacuum configurations.
 
 
Cleansmart is a reputable company with a good reputation and I will not allow you to make misleading claims about our equipment in this way.
 
Your sincerely,
Matthew Flewitt   
Cleansmart Ltd.
 
 
Here's the link to the Ashby's video:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1Elgr0d8Qw
 
Here's the link to the Cleansmart video in response:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXn5gL3AaBs
   
 
Again, I wish I'd not needed to produce this video or send this mail, but the Ashbys YouTube video could have a serious impact on my business if I do not respond to it, so I hope you don't mind me sending this.
 
If you support us, please show your support by commenting at the bottom of our YouTube video.
 
If you are in the market for a new machine my advise is to take any manufacturer's airflow figures with a pinch of salt! It's a sad reflection on this industry that there are several manufacturers quoting or implying hugely exaggerated machine performance claims at the moment. The best thing to do is to get demos on different machines, speak to people who own the machines and look at the reputation and back up service from the supplier.
 
I hope that's ok.
 
Many thanks,
Matt
 
Cleansmart Ltd.
 



 

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2012, 04:47:56 pm »
So what's the difference?
They both did the tests and came out with different figures.
Who's to know which set of figures are true.

John
[/quote

This is the email that Matt sent out. I know who I believe.



 
From: Cleansmart Ltd.
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 10:50 AM
To: Tony Clark
Subject: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer Vacuum Strength Test - The Real Results
 
 
Hi,
 
Matt here from Cleansmart.
 
A few weeks ago Ashbys Cleaning Equipment published a video on YouTube showing their Enforcer machine and our Airflex Turbo.
 
This video shows grossly incorrect data readings for both the Ashbys Enforcer and the Airflex Turbo machines and is therefore very misleading.
 
We have produced our own video to show the real figures for both machines (I'll provide a link to that in a moment).
 
We are also in the process of registering a complaint about Ashby's video with the Advertising Standards Authority. As part of that process I have written a letter to Ashbys which is reproduced below.
 
I don't like having to produce a video showing a competitors machine or having to send an email out like this. However the video Ashbys have produced is very convincing so I feel I must defend my machine and my business.
 
Here's the letter sent to Ashbys:
 
 
Dear Mr Ashby,
 
I am writing to you about a video Ashbys published recently on YouTube which compares airflow and waterlift on the Ashby's Enforcer machine and our own Airflex Turbo. This video shows grossly incorrect data readings for both the Ashbys Enforcer and the Airflex Turbo machines and is therefore very misleading.
 
We intend to register a complaint about this video with the Advertising Standards Authority. As part of the Advertising Standards Authority's complaints procedure, we are required to register our complaint with you first, which is the purpose of this letter.
 
Point 1
 
These are the airflow and water lift readings for both machines (the airflow has been checked using two different meters):
 
Ashbys Enforcer fitted with 1 x 3-stage motor and 1 x heavy duty 3-stage motor (Electro motors)
 
Airflow 117CFM
Mercury lift 17"
Airwatts 3179
 
Airflex Turbo fitted with 3 x 3-stage heavy duty vac motors (Lamb Ametek)
 
Airflow 305CFM
Mercury lift 10.25"
Airwatts 5023
 
The Airflex Turbo is therefore approximately 58% more powerful in terms of airwatts.
 
We are quite prepared to send both machines for independent testing to support our complaint if needs be.
 
Point 2
 
The Omega flowmeter you are using in the video is not suitable for measuring airflow under vacuum. We have contacted Omega, who have confirmed in writing that the meter is 'not suitable for use under vacuum'. Our Airflex Mini machine (which also has vac motors mounted in series) produces around 100CFM airflow, however when we tested the Omega flowmeter on this machine it gave a reading of 180CFM.
 
Point 3
 
The Airflex Turbo in your video appears to be leaking air, in need of repair or perhaps the gate valve is not fully closed: Both the waterlift and airflow figures you quote in the video are grossly incorrect.
 
Point 4
 
You describe both machines as being standard off-the-shelf models, but in reality you are testing what appears to be a brand new Enforcer machine against an Airflex Turbo that is over a year old. Even without the 3 very strong points above, that is hardly a fair test.
 
I request you remove this video from YouTube immediately and refrain from this kind of underhand and misleading behaviour in future. Ashbys has positioned itself as an expert on airflow and waterlift, so I find it hard to believe that you are not aware of the correct performance figures for 'in series' and 'in paralell' vacuum configurations.
 
 
Cleansmart is a reputable company with a good reputation and I will not allow you to make misleading claims about our equipment in this way.
 
Your sincerely,
Matthew Flewitt   
Cleansmart Ltd.
 
 
Here's the link to the Ashby's video:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1Elgr0d8Qw
 
Here's the link to the Cleansmart video in response:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXn5gL3AaBs
   
 
Again, I wish I'd not needed to produce this video or send this mail, but the Ashbys YouTube video could have a serious impact on my business if I do not respond to it, so I hope you don't mind me sending this.
 
If you support us, please show your support by commenting at the bottom of our YouTube video.
 
If you are in the market for a new machine my advise is to take any manufacturer's airflow figures with a pinch of salt! It's a sad reflection on this industry that there are several manufacturers quoting or implying hugely exaggerated machine performance claims at the moment. The best thing to do is to get demos on different machines, speak to people who own the machines and look at the reputation and back up service from the supplier.
 
I hope that's ok.
 
Many thanks,
Matt
 
Cleansmart Ltd.
 

Interesting to read Cleansmart's  perspective , thanks .

I have read that about the omega flowmeter on the USA forums , you really need the digital Anemometer , but like he says its so convincing to see it in the video ,i found myself questioning what i knew i knew about cfm in series at times .
I think there is little chance Ashbys didn't know what they were doing . If its a genuine mistake they should take down all they're recent videos immediately .

Hopefully  the last paragraph is a dig at Solutions/CA and the gang  ... who have Mr Ed V who posted the jags performance figures for both series and parallel at the one time leading everyone to believe the Jag had twice the lift of other portables and the power of a truckmount :) when in fact it has less lift than most machines ...

.. and keeping up the tradition is Mr  N.V.W  who claims you can get 400cfm by simply twiddling with Jags internal hoses .

derek west

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2012, 05:02:21 pm »
don't know the owner of ashbys but looks like he messed with the wrong guy. Dont think ive ever heard a bad word about mat, and therefore that totally rules out underhand marketing from him.

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2012, 05:15:26 pm »
Hi Guys

Interesting from a technical point of view but I'm sure most CC's don't pay much notice to manufacturers claims.

The series/parallel deabte has been going on for years and we all have our preferences.

Personally I would buy either Alltec, Cleanmart or Ametech because I have had good delaings with or heard good things from people I respect.

I have always worked on the basis that the companies which make the least claims probably have the best equipment as it speaks for itself.

Cheers

Doug

Phillip Mold

  • Posts: 594
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2012, 12:08:45 pm »
Heres a challenge then..........

We have the NCCA and TACCA, I am a member of both. Why do we not ask all manufacturers to lend an off the shelf new machine to each to be tested by the trade association, with the results available to members for comparision? 
Doing the best job in the world as well as I can

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11581
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2012, 12:22:38 pm »
Suppliers will never play fair,  they will just move the goal post to suit them selves, prove a machine is less powerfull  than another and they will start saying that it's not about power but the quality of the customer service given, or powers not important if your machine is sat in the garage  broken , so it's about having a good stock of spare  parts on stock.

The trouble is they are speaking the truth, how important is raw power? If a machine will dry a carpet in 3hrs instead of 4 hrs does it really matter that much?

I would rather buy a machine that I can change a vac motor on the job in 15mins than buy a machine that is a little bit more powerful but if it breaks down I have to leave the job.

I've heard of truckmount owners who have been quoted 4 weeks for a part to come from the USA. If they had known this might they have bought a less powerfull machine but been happy the supplier has all the spare  parts sat in thier unit?
Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2012, 12:57:26 pm »
Hi Guys

I spoke with the NCCA some years ago on this subject and got the distict impression who has the best machine was a  can of worms they didn't want to open, after all the suppliers are associate members!

We just need to take any claims with a pinch of salt and this is where the get togethers really come into their own as we can speak freely to each other about our experiences.

Cheers

Doug



james roffey

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2012, 08:20:30 am »
When i did my NCCA course in 2008 i was told that the Alltec machine was the one to go for, i think they were biased in that direction and it had nothing to do with it being the best machine, i then made the worst mistake ever by buying a Ninja, quite good machine but  lousy customer service from Ashby's i developed a deep mistrust in them and sold that machine as soon as i could.
I was lucky enough to pick up a seconhand Airflex from a guy who only used the machine for seven hours, he decided it would be easy to clean carpets but told me he did not realise it would be so difficult to find customers  ???
All i can say was dealing with Mat at Cleansmart has removed the stress and worry i had before about my machine and the backup to keep it earning money for me, i believe the test thy carried out was done correctly and fairly, i think Ashby's as always have been shortsighted in releasing the utube video and it has now backfired on them

Blacky

  • Posts: 93
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2012, 07:40:37 pm »
Cleansmarts test was unfair. On the Ashbys test, it clearly shows the vac motor buttons been turned on, this was on both machines.

If you watch the Cleansmart test. The Airflex had all three motors turned on. He only turned on one motor on the Enforcer and did not angle the camera to show all buttons illuminated on the Enforcer.

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2012, 07:59:47 pm »
Cleansmarts test was unfair. On the Ashbys test, it clearly shows the vac motor buttons been turned on, this was on both machines.

If you watch the Cleansmart test. The Airflex had all three motors turned on. He only turned on one motor on the Enforcer and did not angle the camera to show all buttons illuminated on the Enforcer.


Listen through headphones ... at 1.26     
 
First motor ...second later second motor almost causes the funnel to fall off the top of the Enforcer .
Plus ...   It shows the lift test at 17HG  for the Enforcer , one motor would be half or less than half that  , it then goes to the CFM gauge in the same shot without turning off the machine .  :)

Ferenc G.

  • Posts: 140
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2012, 08:21:54 pm »
Cleansmarts test was unfair. On the Ashbys test, it clearly shows the vac motor buttons been turned on, this was on both machines.

If you watch the Cleansmart test. The Airflex had all three motors turned on. He only turned on one motor on the Enforcer and did not angle the camera to show all buttons illuminated on the Enforcer.


Just watched the vid, as John said you can hear it when he switches the second vac on.

james roffey

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2012, 09:12:16 pm »
To claim that Mat and cleansmart would cheat by just running one vac on the Enforcer in a head to head test is quite frankly ridiculous.
As John Martin says the results match the statistical performance  of what the vac motors would be expected to produce.

Carpet Dawg

  • Posts: 2968
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2012, 09:27:32 pm »
Hw could you not hear the second vac going on?  ???

*Hector*

  • Posts: 9265
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2012, 08:42:22 am »
Hw could you not hear the second vac going on?  ???

No sound card in the pc  ;D ;D
Everyday this forum slips further from God.  :'(

Ferenc G.

  • Posts: 140
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2012, 09:56:23 am »

I would like to see the Storm tested  , i'd say 280cfm and 9HG   ....
less than the Turbo   :)
:o  I would like to see that too!

jim mca

  • Posts: 827
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2012, 11:13:00 pm »
The guys who have upgraded from the turbo to the storm that have posted have said performance did improve
as for the enforcer I have a machine ( airflex mini ) with the same configuration as the enforcer imo its the best
PORTABLE out there but its a toy compared with my jag which in imo is not very portable.

Ferenc G.

  • Posts: 140
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2012, 08:31:48 am »
According to the specs of the vac's (and the cleansmart test) the Turbo produces approx. 300 CFM. Two 6.6 motors are around 280CFM, waterlift is almost identical.

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2012, 03:18:29 pm »
Hi Guys

Just goes to show you can't win whatever you do.

Better to listen to those who you trust and you know are speaking from first hand knowledge.

On a seperate note it always makes me laugh when a manufacturer claims greater lift than the total lift of the motors, just made up nonsense.

Cheers

Doug

Carpet Dawg

  • Posts: 2968
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2012, 07:07:03 pm »
Hw could you not hear the second vac going on?  ???

No sound card in the pc  ;D ;D

 ;D either that or he had to run away from the police when the 2nd vac came on.... :-X see if you can work that one out :-X

Carpet Dawg

  • Posts: 2968
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2012, 07:08:38 pm »
Hi Guys

Just goes to show you can't win whatever you do.

Better to listen to those who you trust and you know are speaking from first hand knowledge.

On a seperate note it always makes me laugh when a manufacturer claims greater lift than the total lift of the motors, just made up nonsense.

Cheers

Doug


What not even "Ultra-Tech Wind Tunnel Vacuum Motors" Doug ??  :)

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2012, 08:01:52 pm »
Excellent vacuum motor humor  ^   :D



Breaking news ....

Derek Ashby rejects Cleansmart Video and stands by his figures  ...




From youtube ...
Just lost a customer - cant believe you would turn to such dirty tactics with staged results. I believe you should apologise unreservedly. Dusthers Commercial, Kettering.

carpetcleanerNN155SB 4 days ago

Hi carpetcleanerNN155SB

Thank you for taking time to comment. We value the opinions of all our customers and I’m sorry that you feel this way, however we unreservedly stand by our comparative results. I am more than happy to explain our methods of testing to you in detail and talk through why we feel our results are accurate, so please give me a call at your convenience on 01795 436999. I’m in the office Mon – Fri, 08:00 – 16:30.

Derek Ashby







john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2012, 08:55:41 pm »
Actually , just spotted Ashbys full reply here ...





Published on Sep 21, 2012 by AshbysUK

Thank you BucklandSteamClean for bringing the Cleansmart video to our attention. We have posted the link below -
http://youtu.be/ZXn5gL3AaBs
as it is only fair people see both to understand the difficulties faced in the accurate testing and comparing of vacuum systems.

Ashbys have over 35 years experience in the professional carpet cleaning industry. We know our customers work hard and we want to support them by offering the best machine. To ensure our customers get the best, it is important that they can make an informed decision when buying a machine - and to do this, they need to know a machine's specification.

When we test a machines vacuum system it is not in laboratory conditions, but we try to do so in a fair, monitored and controlled environment using a standard model and test equipment which provides a consistent result. This can be difficult when measuring CFM.

Having used in the past both vane and hot-wire anemometers, the Omega gauge used in our video produces consistent results which can act as a fair comparison between machines. Hand held devices need to be fixed in position, in a known cubic area to calculate CFM accurately. If not fixed in position you achieve varying results. A good example of this shown in Cleansmart's video (see time 2.54 - 3.07), where the vane anemometer shows readings which appear to vary between 400 - 300 CFM prior to being positioned in the test area of their Airflex Turbo.

We believe our testing methods are sound and stand by our comparative results. We believe our vacuum system PC9951 is the best in its class and if it were not, we would willingly install a different system.

In our video the Enforcer tested was brand new. The Cleansmart Airflex Turbo was not brand new, but was in good working order, had the dump valve fully closed and we have no reason to believe it did not perform to its normal working specification.

It did not however, have the grey plastic / metal device shown at the back of the clear recovery / dirty water tank lid (see Cleansmart's video time 1.14), which during the airflow test could act as a clamp if the lid was being pushed down (see time 3.05) and create a higher CFM reading by preventing air leakage.

Our engineers have noted that when the air-flow of our Enforcer is tested, the operative's right hand is in (and remains in) a position on the recovery tank lid hinge where, if force were applied, would pivot the lid away from where it should seal and creates air leakage, giving a lower CFM reading (see time 2.13 on Cleansmart video).

Is the operative's wink at the end significant?

We believe the fairest way would be for an independent third party to test standard versions of both machines under agreed simulated working conditions.

Please ring me on 01795 436999 if you wish to discuss this or come and help me set up a test method you feel is fair.

Kind regards
Derek Ashby
Ashbys Cleaning Equipment

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2012, 09:24:16 pm »
 jeez , don't know about anyone else but i think his three remarks implying Cleansmart have fixed their test figures are lame as hell  ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXn5gL3AaBs

Firstly he says that at 2.54 -3.07 the CFM gauge shows 400-300 before settling down , i cat see 400 anywhere , looks like it goes straight to the high 200s-300


Then he implys that whatever plastic/metal device at the back ( perhaps added on later models to keep lid from falling off ? ) is a clamp .... surely when the vacuums are switched on the lid clamps it self in a tight seal anyway

An then he suggests the guys hand that is lightly resting on the lid of the enforcer is causing an air leak ...

sounds like lame excuses to me  :)

John Milnes

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2012, 09:33:38 pm »
Quote
In our video the Enforcer tested was brand new. The Cleansmart Airflex Turbo was not brand new, but was in good working order

There is another factor to take into account. Some of the early Airflexes waste tanks suffered from a crack due to thin wall thickness which could/may account for a test failure or discrepancy.

That crack in the waste tank (just behind the front control panel) if there was one, would render any test useless.

Only evident if the front control panel is removed.

Another spanner ;D

brianbarber

  • Posts: 995
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2012, 10:17:14 pm »
I think Derek's offer of an independent test is the best way forward.

Can't be fairer than that....for all parties concerned.


Mr B
If in doubt.....Leave it out !!

james roffey

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2012, 10:31:25 pm »
From my own experiences i have only had machines from Ashby's and Cleansmart and i can say without question that i know who's more likely to play dirty.
Ashby's took every opportunity to screw money out of me when i had my Ninja, even the manner of the making of this recent video shows their true colours, using a customers machine behind his back and in so doing depriving him, their customer of his property and means of earning a living.
Mat at Cleansmart has always been fair, honest and generous with me even to the point of being out of pocket to maintain my machine working at it's peak performance, i got my Airflex of ebay and it was one of the earlier machines some modificatons were made to improve performance further and Mat had this done free of charge even though i got his machine elswhere, that says a lot in my book. he has also on ocasion talked me out of buying stuff from him that he thinks i do not need, why would a supplier do that, i think he understands his customers, for me i trust him to always give me good advice rather that the mistrust i soon developed while using Ashby's who certainly in my opinion had the "quick buck" attitude
Quite understandably Mat is upset that "his baby" a machine that is not a generic clone of another machine, but something he has developed himself into a great machine is     unscrupulously examined by another supplier is a step too far.

james roffey

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2012, 11:17:01 pm »
John

You asked about the metal clamp behind the Airflex lid, my machine which is an early model has this, it's not new or added  to enhance the performance for this test.
"talk about clutching at straws"
When you place the lid on you push it under this first, but you are right when all vac motors on it creates a vacuum which clamps the lid to the body, that metal bar makes no difference the fact that it slides under that bar means it has quite a clearance, when the vacs are on the clearance is greater still so whatever it's for it is not to improve the performance.

Simon@arenaclean

  • Posts: 1054
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2012, 11:26:32 pm »
The metal clamp was simply put there to stop the lid tiping forward when heavy 2" hose was attached. Since the lid was modified  a couple of years ago it's not really needed.

john martin

  • Posts: 2699
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2012, 11:50:48 pm »
 Yes , i had to look a couple of times to see what he was talking about ... clearly even from the vid it has nothing to do with the vacuum seal .
And any idea then the chap doing the test is breaking the vacuum seal on the enforcer with his hand is equally ridiculous .
And he must know three motors in parallel  is a lot more than 200cfm  .....  and that you can't have high lift and high cfm together in series on his own machine .

Roll on than independent test ...  although i can see them dragging it out  or backing out .

This Derek Ashby guy needs to be exposed for the BS merchant i suspect he is .

Tony Gill Carpet Smart

  • Posts: 1254
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2012, 08:27:00 am »
The only way to get true results is from a totally independant test, manufactures always give results which favor their own products.
 Derek at Ashbys is now saying he is willing to do this can't really say fairer than that if Matt will agree to it.

Regards Tony
STAY YOUNG HAVE FUN BE HAPPY xx
www.carpetcleanersbridlington.co.uk

Ferenc G.

  • Posts: 140
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2012, 09:34:54 am »
Quoting from the Cleansmart video description:

"We are quite prepared to send both machines for independent testing to support our complaint if needs be."

Matt offered this first so I am sure he will agree.

Matt Flewitt

  • Posts: 4
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2012, 12:01:47 pm »
Hello,

This is Matt from Cleansmart:

Cleansmart and Ashbys are both NCCA corporate members so, if the NCCA is agreeable, I suggest we meet at the NCCA offices. We will take an Airflex Turbo and airflow meter, Ashbys can take their Enforcer machine and airflow meter.

We will then see who is telling the truth and who is making unnecessary, ridiculous and highly misleading claims on YouTube  :)

Airflex Turbo: approx 305 CFM, 10.25” mercury lift, total 5023 air watts
Ashbys Enforcer: approx 117 CFM, 17” mercury lift, total 3179 air watts

The Airflex Turbo is therefore approx 58% more powerful.

Many thanks,
Matt

Paul Evans

  • Posts: 408
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2012, 12:08:11 pm »
Well straight from the horses mouth,
Cant say fairer than that. Hats off to Matt no ducking any issues there,

Paul

Jim_77

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2012, 12:26:17 pm »


james roffey

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2012, 07:14:02 pm »
I am betting that Ashby's will drag their heals or avoid this head to head, the obvious get out will be they will suggest that  the Airflex they tested may have been underpowered for what ever reason and they were mislead by the findings, but they did it in "good faith" the trouble is no one will believe them. They had little or no credibility before they posted that video.

Tony Gill Carpet Smart

  • Posts: 1254
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2012, 07:48:04 pm »
Fair play Matt come on Derek put your machine on independant test as You said.

Tony
STAY YOUNG HAVE FUN BE HAPPY xx
www.carpetcleanersbridlington.co.uk

Jim_77

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2012, 01:07:16 am »
If this is going to be done, get the jaguar and alltec machines in on it too!!  Would be stupid not to eh?!  

Problem is, this will never get done by the NCCA simply because they will have to pronounce a winner and from thereon will no longer be viewed as an impartial organisation with no allegiance to any particular supplier....which they are of course, aren't they :) :)

There's a firm called SATRA in Kettering who do lab testing of all sorts of things, would someone actually give enough of a rat's testicle about the theoretical (and totally irrelevant to know) CFM in open-flow of a portable, to take all 4 machines there and try to settle the squabbling?!

But then where would we all be?  Whichever machine comes out on top the others will start squawking about the test conditions and this and that is not a fair comparison.  It won't stop the bickering, it will create more bickering.

Then everyone will go back to their previous viewpoints about each of the different suppliers and machines and we'll be no better off.

Learn from history folks :)

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2012, 07:23:53 am »
Hi Guys

The NCCA won't do it because they like to keep all associates happy and  will not rock the boat - money.

TACCA however should grasp the chance to really represent CC's by carrying out testing, it can't be that difficult to actually perform the test.

Jim, history is there to be made!

Cheers

Doug

Richard Basey-Fisher

  • Posts: 260
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2012, 08:55:38 am »
Fair play to matt.   

dan paton

  • Posts: 492
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2012, 08:58:26 am »
 i wonder if the sales of solutions and alltec machines have went up since this all started because of people not trusting either ashbys or cleansmart because from the outside looking in this whole affair now looks like a bitch fight . an independent test may well be surprising. maybe both company's results are wrong . who knows? what i do know is if i was going to buy a new machine i would avoid both of these manufacturers at the moment  :)

Ferenc G.

  • Posts: 140
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2012, 09:34:45 am »
i wonder if the sales of solutions and alltec machines have went up since this all started because of people not trusting either ashbys or cleansmart because from the outside looking in this whole affair now looks like a bitch fight . an independent test may well be surprising. maybe both company's results are wrong . who knows? what i do know is if i was going to buy a new machine i would avoid both of these manufacturers at the moment  :)
???

This all started because one supplier posted a video showing test results what the other didn't accept and tryed to defend themselves in their own test.

If the independent test proves that either party is right then the second highlighted part is an evidence of the damage caused to them.

oliver collins

  • Posts: 352
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2012, 10:00:14 am »
Hi
I had the nInja with 7.2 vac and 5.7 industrial vac and the vac  booster and now I have the storm it's not
 nearly as powerful ,used a 2  inch wand on both and you can clearly tell the air flow was a lot less

The turbo and the storm are great machines having used both the storm is my fav

Oliver Collins rise n shine cleaning

robert meldrum

  • Posts: 1984
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2012, 10:33:31 am »
After all is said and done .............will it make any difference to sales, people will often buy machines on ease of use and cost rather than be swayed by multivacs which could result in multiproblems.

Take a look at this web site I found today where it looks like a World famous franchise member has found the ultimate machine for ease of use and handling with it's own built in agitator.

www.soarvalleychemdryleicester.co.uk

neil 47

  • Posts: 1345
IICRC

james roffey

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2012, 04:30:05 pm »
I had the Ninja and now have am Aiflex turbo not a fair comparison i know as  the Airflex is in a different league, but an often overlooked aspect is the Airflex machines layout for carrying out maintenance, it's just so well thought out,alright i have not owned all the machines available, but i have seen pictures of their internal workings and i believe the  Airflex has to be the easiest to work on. When i had my Ninja i took one look inside the thing and thought better of even trying to replace a vac or anything for that matter. so Ashby's had plenty of opportunity to make money out of maintaining the thing
The Airflex is so easy because of ease of access rather that being covered by other electrical parts and cables you can simply reach the relevent parts. Even i can work on it and i have zero mechanical knowledge. for any outsider i can tell you that the utube video that Ashby's made is a joke, The Airflex produces just over 300 CFM 100 from each motor which is well in excess of the Ashby's machine, that is an incontrovertible fact, yes it has a little more lift, but overall the Airflex is not only much more powerful but the supplier cleansmart is also in a different league, thats why everyone sprung to Mat's defence, take a look and see the video on utube even Ashby's own customers are boycotting them because of the underhand methods they have used. even the machine they had for the test belonged to a customer and was used without his consent or knowledge.The fact that Ashby's claim in that video that the  Airflex Turbo has 190 CFM discredits everything they say.
  

Tony Gill Carpet Smart

  • Posts: 1254
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2012, 04:55:06 pm »
I had a Ninja still have as a backup if ever required. Very easy to service in my opinion maybe the Airflex is even better I don't know never having owened one.

I know that Ashby's always gave me very good service not that I needed much as the Ninja was always very reliable.

As for the claims of both Matt and Derek I don't know

Tony
STAY YOUNG HAVE FUN BE HAPPY xx
www.carpetcleanersbridlington.co.uk

james roffey

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2012, 06:08:02 pm »
Tony

All any of us can do is speak from our own experiences, i have dealt with Ashby's and Cleansmart i felt one only wanted to only make money from me, which they did every time they looked at my Ninja which was not at all reliable. and the other wanted a good long term business relationship, two very different ways of running a business.

JandS

  • Posts: 4238
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2012, 06:44:40 pm »
Vacs on Ninja easy to change.
Impossible done straight away, miracles can take a little longer.

james roffey

Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2012, 07:33:54 pm »
Vacs on Ninja easy to change.

Maybe for an idiot ! but i'm a complete idiot when it come to things mechanical or electrical  :-[

Tony Gill Carpet Smart

  • Posts: 1254
Re: Airflex Turbo vs Ashbys Enforcer ... Cleansmart responce
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2012, 07:39:39 pm »
James fair enough mate thats all I was doing

Cheers Tony
STAY YOUNG HAVE FUN BE HAPPY xx
www.carpetcleanersbridlington.co.uk