[The Bear]

Hi Tosh,

I don't disagree with you in principle regarding terrorists, I made my comments in response to comments by Debbie, that British and Americans are doing the right thing. It's never right to target and kill civilians. That includes when we do it.

On the point that it is only poor people that become suicide bombers, sadly thats not the case. Rich, poor, well educated, poorly educated, reports suggest it's both.
 Your right it is a problem that a third of the world survives on $2.00, i wouldn't do 10 minuets for that.

The solution? I dont think this forum really wants us discussing politics and religion, and i'm suprised this thread hasn't yet been closed.


It saddens me to see anyone suffer loss. The loss some are feeling this weekend in london is the same feeling of loss no matter where in the world we live.

When will we realise we are all the same, we may speak a different language or serve a different God, but cut us and we all bleed, kill us and our families will mourn.

Can we change things, in the long term no, a higher power must do that. Short term we can all do our bit.

My conclusion. Show love and fellow feeling to all people we come in contact with. Including people we disagree with.

 

[Sunshine]

Hi all thanks for all your kind words here.

I was a little too close to this on thursday morning.

I watched the train that exploded, pull out of Liverpool St eastbound to Algate. My train came in westbound towards Morgate. As I got on the train the bomb went off on the train heading east. (that had just watched pull out of Liverpool St) I was boarding the last but one car when it went off. The lights seemed to flicker and there was the largest bang i have ever heard. The lights went out. I was out of there. Got to the top of the stairs and every thing seemed normal. So I jumped on a bus!!! what an idiot (knowing what I now know).

Made it as far as Kings Cross. Then the police were pulling everyone off the buses.

I dont mind admitting I am counting my lucky stars over the last 2 days.

90 seconds later and that east bound tube would have exploded at Liverpool St.
With me standing on the platform.

My thoughts and sympathy are with those and the families who were not as lucky as i was last week.

Keep safe.


Sunshine

[rosskesava]

I was in a bar years ago in South Africa when an ANC bomb went off while taking a 3 week break from work - at the time I worked for the Volunteer Services Overseas.

I got bad cuts and bruises and went deaf for a few days. My friend and work colleague had his legs blown off.

It was so common place at that time in SA that it was not mentioned in the press or tv and anyway, the ANC was all ok with the west at that time so reality didn't warrant air time.

So many innocent peoples lives were changed that day. 20 or so dead and about 80 injured, seriously injured or maimed for life. And not a single mention about them anywhere in any newspaper or tv station.

My thoughts about the London bombings are with those who have suffered, who are suffering and those who don't know what has happened to loved ones.

What I'd do to a terrorist or any terrorist organisation I keep to myself but I'd do in the name of humanity. You have to experience it to know the feeling.

[bumper]

Well they are not bothered coz when they get caught they have a better live in prison,playstations,computers,books,televisions,dvd,cds,4 meals a day,some people have not got half that stuff outside prison, they  should hang them  when they are caught, and stop being a soft nation.

[Paul Coleman]

Yes, if/when they are caught, watch how their lawyers go on about the 'rights'.  Scumbags - and that's just the lawyers.

Ok then.  Let's dispense with courtrooms and just lock people up on mere suspicion.  Oh!  Hang on a minute.  The government are already trying lock up anyone they choose with house arrest without telling them what they're accused of.  So someone accuses you of something Graham and you get punished without having a trial?  Theoretically anyway, people are meant to be innocent until proven otherwise beyond reasonable doubt.
Not having a go at you but I'm just concerned that knee-jerk reactions will accelerate the dismantling of a legal system that is currently supposed to be OK (in theory anyway).  If such a dismantling takes place, the terrorists really will have won.

[Paul Coleman]

Well, my joke was at the lawyers, but that aside...

The point was that there may well be a VERY uncomfortable feeling if/when these people come to court, and the evidence is 'not quite enough' to convict, and then we have to let them go.

Yeughh!  How distateful is that?

It's like having Mr Hook Abu Hamza spout his poisonous bile withouth redress.

I have a feeling that to win this 'war', the country I live in may have to get very dirty hands.  If I were in a position to take part in that, with the Crown on my side, I would engage that evil enemy, and put aside my morals, and steel myself for the head-f**k that would come my way afterwards.

I am not about imprisoning innocents, but if there's some collateral damage, well, I can live with that.

It's not nice, but it might be the only thing that gets the country through.

Let's hope it doesn't happen that way.

It could also be that there is not quite enough evidence to convict because the wrong people get charged.  Can we really be OK about a Middle Eastern version of the "Guildford 4" or "Birmingham 6"?  Both of these were clearly convictions that occurred with dodgy "evidence" that the establishment later acknowledged.  The danger is also that if it can be done concerning the major issues such as terrorism, it can also be done to anyone over lesser issues.
I'm astonished this thread hasn't been locked 

[Sir Squeaky]

I'm astonished this thread hasn't been locked

Obviously it's something the moderators are interested to hear peoples views on.

If this was going to be stopped it would have been by now. (Watch Tosh lock it now to be awkward!)

I know this is a w/c-ing forum, but the country's  safety and well being is more important than work which can always be done tomorrow.

Roger.

[rosskesava]

I'm also surprised it hasn't been locked.

The danger is also that if it can be done concerning the major issues such as terrorism, it can also be done to anyone over lesser issues.

The difference between the two is that a terrorist kills people with no warning and seeks to undermine the establishment.

Those dead as a result of terrorism cannot be bought back to life and those maimed are maimed for life. The misery and suffering remains with the aftermath of a terrorist attack.

There's little in terms of those peoples rights before the event but the rights of a potential terrrorist after the event...........

Also, who would you like to have living near you or planning events near to your place of work or home, or means of travel, a terrorist or a car thief, house breaker, bank robber and so on?

As for 'lesser issues' - my experience is that those at the bottom of society get less justice anyway. Unless they are in some way a child or part of a minority then their rights shout loud and proud.

Cheers

[windows_chepstow]

I wouldn't dare lock this thread!  You lot would've had my guts for garters.

Anyway, it's been discussed intelligently, with many valid, yet opposing views; and there's been no flaming either!

I think Mike Boxhall's overall vision for this site, is that it's to be a usefull resource; a kind of 'tool' for us window cleaners; not a 'chat site'.  Somewhere to come to ask a question and answer others - not to have to wade through countless 'Scottish' jokes that I've posted. 

That's not a bad idea is it?

Many members in the past have complained that this site is too 'chatty' (and one of the complaints was directed at me too ).  However, for this particular thread, I won't lock it, and will only 'moderate' it if people get silly or obnoxious.

And remember you lot; you've all a 'report to moderator' button you can use if someone gets out of hand or offends anyone.

Let's just hope 'we' get our hands on the b@st@rds who planted these cowardly bombs quickly, and find a sensible way forward to help prevent this happening again.

[Paul Coleman]

I'm also surprised it hasn't been locked.

The danger is also that if it can be done concerning the major issues such as terrorism, it can also be done to anyone over lesser issues.

The difference between the two is that a terrorist kills people with no warning and seeks to undermine the establishment.

Those dead as a result of terrorism cannot be bought back to life and those maimed are maimed for life. The misery and suffering remains with the aftermath of a terrorist attack.

There's little in terms of those peoples rights before the event but the rights of a potential terrrorist after the event...........

Also, who would you like to have living near you or planning events near to your place of work or home, or means of travel, a terrorist or a car thief, house breaker, bank robber and so on?

As for 'lesser issues' - my experience is that those at the bottom of society get less justice anyway. Unless they are in some way a child or part of a minority then their rights shout loud and proud.

Cheers

My big fear Ross is that by stripping away things like habeas corpus and the right to a jury trial we are heading down a slippery slope.  There have already been attempts to remove habeas corpus, trial by jury for certain alleged offences, and double jeopardy too.  There have been proposals to enforce house arrest on anyone without informing the person or their legal representative as to the reasons - though this was watered down slightly by saying that a judge had to give the nod for this.  Personally, I have no real faith in the judiciary being independent from government.
My great concern is these bombings will give the government the excuse they need to accelerate draconian, authoritarian measures that they've wanted to implement all along.  Once such laws is on the statute books, they will be misused.  Terrorists today, trade unionists tomorrow, general population thereafter.  There are many examples of laws being (mis)used in ways totally different from their original intentions.  Not that they actually need to now anyway.  These new ASBO orders require no real proof.  Breaching an ASBO can carry a 5 year sentence.  Therefore, anyone who the government dislikes can be put on a 5 year suspended sentence with no real proof that they've done wrong - in theory.

They tell us that if we've nothing to hide then we've nothing to fear.
I realise that it is a big leap for a government to use anti-terrorist laws against its own citizens, but it doesn't seem to happen in one big leap.  Rather, such things happen piecemeal over many years.
I sometimes feel as if we are all appearing on big brother.
Thanks to the mods for letting this run.  I'm pleased that it has been an intelligent debate without flaming.

[Customers4u]

Well this thread gets better now it looks like the terrorists responsible have been captured, reminds me of what the late great kenny everett used to say, ' we should round them up put them in a field and BOMB THE numptyS!!

At least one of the terrorists was killed on the bus, would have loved to have seen the look on his face, but he probably did,nt get any kind of chance to have a look of any sort!

I was a soldier in northern ireland, it was always a kind of good instant justice when a terrorists bomb went off before he or she got it to where it was intended to get to, just a shame that the terrorist on thursday was sitting on a crowded bus and not on his own somewhere!

[windows_chepstow]

I was a soldier in northern ireland, it was always a kind of good instant justice when a terrorists bomb went off before he or she got it to where it was intended to get to, just a shame that the terrorist on thursday was sitting on a crowded bus and not on his own somewhere!

Yes, IRA 'own goals' always used to amuse me too.  I spent several years in Ulster; even married wife number one from there.

One incident that I particularly enjoyed was early on when the IRA were developing radio controlled bombs.  One terrorist was setting one up in a culvert in Armagh, to try and kill a passing army patrol.

Un-'flippin'-fortunately, little 'Jonny' was in the next field playing with his radio controlled aircraft.

Oh how we laughed at that one.  I saw the pictures SOCO took.  Yuk!

GCS, Please do try to refrain from swearing.   There's loads of other words you can use - or try spelling them slightly incorrectly; just so that sensitive people like me can see that you're trying to make an effort to show some respect for our sensitivities.

Cheers!

[Sir Squeaky]

Now, bustards need bombing eh?

Actually it's Barstools.

[craig b]

(Edited by Mod:  No Flaming please gentlemen)  The other post was locked was because you said it could have been worse. The next time it will be .The bomb makers our still out ther you think these young lads made them DONT THINK SO!
As for talking about other terrorists LIKE THE IRA if they had wanted they could have blew half of London up if they hadnt give a warning
If this new breed of terrorist get the capabilities of the IRA GOD HELP US ALL!

[craig b]

You did . you had a stupid conspiracy bull poop as well
thats why your post was wiped and not motified
Ive lived N.ireland for thirty years and havent been as more horrified as for what happened in London
you never no the next it could be a full car of explosives going of in central london may be like canary wharf only with every body at work and in the streets . Dont joke about things

[rosskesava]

Hi

I don't intend to add anything that will cause anything other than proper debate etc.

The bombings by the IRA and the London bombing are the same only in that explosives were used.

I've worked in Afganistan when people were dying in their tens of thousands from starvation, disease and so on. Most people there were fundamentally the same as us apart from their physical situation and by the fanatics who ruled by fear, terror and punishment.

Islamic fanatics (who don't deserve the name Islamic) don't actually care what we think and that point is missed by most.

They have one aim which is to have them running things and all the West are only fit for death as we are not human. If they die in that attempt then that's ok as they then get to enjoy, amongst other promises, unlimited virgins in heaven or so they are told.

They are very different to proper Muslems who are in the main peacefull as afterall, Allah means literally - The Mercifull, and I am disturbed that some in this country draw a link between Muslems and those responsible for the bombings.

The IRA were seeking a change within the system whilst retaining the system.

This lot who ordered the London bombs placed want the whole system gone and replaced by theirs and to that end, as per the prevoius posting, warnings don't happen.

If this new breed of terrorist get the capabilities of the IRA GOD HELP US ALL!

The IRA had a lot of support from all walks of life and in lots of different contries and some support was based on some type of sentiment of 'romantic' and apart from that, there was(is) an incredible history of the IRA and the arguement against Parliament.

al Qaeda have little support from anyone anywhere mainstream and by and large, after 9/11, are isolated.

Cheers