[williamx]

For the last 5 years there have been many arguments and confusion on how the Working at Heights Directive applies to the “Window Cleaner” who is suppose to comply with them.

I suggest that we “Window Cleaners” write our own “WHAH”, we can then set it out in a way that all of us understand and hopefully the majority will agree to.

If this can be done then maybe the HSE will take notice.

I will start off with my view of the “WHAD”.

1   Ladders are NOT Banned from being used, but the following must be applied firstly, before they can be taken as an option to clean windows.

2   There cannot be a time limit when using a ladder, because to set one could encourage the window cleaner to work faster and therefore they could have an accident.

3   If the windows can be cleaned using alternative methods, you cannot use the excuse that I have not got the equipment or licence, so I can use ladders, instead, you will have to use this alternative method.

4   When a window cleaner is asked to clean a property, they must do a risk assessment on what equipment to use and what risks there might be involved in carrying out the job, on future cleans this assessment can be updated to any new risks that apply to this property.

5   If you are using ladders, you must take a 15 minute break between each job.

6   If you are using ladders, they must be in good working condition and have all safety devices used with them.

These are a few of the rules that I would suggest.

I would also like the government to have a scheme, where they can help with financing the purchase of the wfp equipment to those window cleaners who don’t have it.  This scheme only applies to ladder window cleaners who are already working.

[daz1977]

why dont they just ban ladders its that simple, 

becasue if they followed the rules there, then u would be lucky 2 get to jobs an hour done,

 i dont think it will every happen as you will get some idiot claim it is effecting his right to earn money under the human righrs act, even if they dont ban ladders,  do they set a height at which they can be used

until they make the industry more proffessional  ie all licencsed and registered with insurance and training,  then ladders will always be used

[williamx]

Maybe the use of ladders should be licenced and on-going training applied.

as for the human rights to earn a living, their human rights to work safely, without the risk of serious injury or death might be more important.

Remember the majority of falls from ladders are by people who have been using them for years.

[gerard mcmanus]

My staff are licenced, professional, insured and well trained. Yet we still use ladders. With no problems.

A number of reasons I would go out of business if I where to use a waterfed pole, ok, maybe not out of business but loss a fortune.

1. There is only about 20% of my jobs that I could do using a waterfed pole mostly due to difficult parking, and trolleys are not an option due to the heavy lifting, or time wasted filling on site - if there was a water suply which would be unlikely.

2. The additional expensence, of both having the equipment, and lugging it about in the van, cost of petrol.

3. The insurance implications, and also the risk of vans being stollen if I am working out of a van mount.

4. I stay in a flat 3 storeys up and wountn't be able to get that amount of water in my van each day anyway, and stand pipes are to expensive.

5. I wouldn't make my job risk free, how many times have I read on here people complaining of back problems with this method, danger of overhead cables, or slipping hazards associated with it.

6. The results are not as good and customers may not be happy paying for it. You can say all you want that you can get crusty birds crap of will a WFP but I don't beleive that for one minute plus there is you tube vids of the WC Training academy  saying you cant.

Ok now on to your rules

Good point on number 2, agreed

Number 3 is crazy, I dont agree, there is health and safety risk associated with WFP and the idea that it elimates the risk is not true, and cant at times be used on all jobs. WC's shouldnt be forced to take out loans to pay for WFP equipement, when it can be done safely from a ladder, as long as common sense is applied.

Number 4, we already do risk assessments on all jobs

Number 5, why?

Number 6, all safety devices fitted? that should read be used if required, if thats the case ladders will end up looking like swiss army knives as for every device produced would have to be used? bonkers!

WFP is not a suitable replacement to ladders in my opinion, I have done extensive research on it, and it falls on loads of hurdles. They should be used hand in hand with ladders, as they dont suit all jobs.

How many of WFP users carry ladders as well?

[williamx]

I am not saying that wfp is better than ladders, but wfp is a lot safer.

I would diagree with you on how good a wfp system is at cleaning windows, I have removed all types of stuff from windows using wfp ie bird crap, paint, window sealant, limescale and eggs, yesterday I removed goose bird poop from windows that where 60 high, I know that I had done this because they where the staircase windows which I could inspect from the inside, as with all ladder cleaners I use various attachments and chemicals when I am faced with these problems.

I know that I do a good job with wfp because I do not advertise anymore, yet my phone rings every week with new customers who want to join my list, most of my customers have been approached by other window cleaners both wfp and ladder, yet they are still with me, it cannot be because of cost because I am a lot more expensive than them.

Wfp does not eliminate all risks, but it does reduce or elimanate some, for instance you cannot fall from height.

The majority of accidents in any trade happen because the worker rushes his workload, by him having to take a break between jobs, this should slow him down.   

[daz1977]

so u would be happy for people you employ to finish a house then have a 15 break then do an other house and have a break and so on

[williamx]

It is better than having to tell his wife and kids that he had a accident and had died.

[daz1977]

can i have a job please lol

its a idea, but i dont think that it will ever work

ladders will never be fully banned, wfp is just an other option,  if forcing wc to be wfp only u will end up with more people on ebay flogging there van and machines after 6 months, not wanting to be wc,  or u will end up with more beer money wc,  because how will they police it,

[dazmond]

have a 15 minute break between each job?what aload of crap!

i think we should all be allowed to use ladders anyway we want.ive a ladderstopper and mitts on mine and if its very slippy or awkward i use an extension pole!

although i am going to change over to wfp in the future for about 80% of my round i will still use ladders;

1. up and over garages/flat roofs

2.granny one bed flats(i clean about 30 of them but not all the downstairs flats)the frames are oxidized as well.

3.cleaning conny roofs.

4.climbing over locked gates

5.badly flakey old wooden frames.

[Lee GLS]

15 minute break between jobs, you are having a laugh, for people using trad method they would end up working about 3 hours a day. What a load of bull!!!

[gewindows]

What, if, how, who, when, but, yes, no, why, up, down, round and round we go

[dazmond]

im sick of hearing about all this health and safety rubbish!

how many people fall off and die?not many!granted most of us have fell off once or twice or had a few near misses!

its the chance we all take and if we fall off its just tough!im alot more careful and sensible these days but youll never eliminate ALL risk.

i do think i will be safer when i go wfp but i dont think you should have to!
if you want to go up ladders then do it!

[williamx]

1. up and over garages/flat roofs

I can still reach the majority of windows with my pole.

2.granny one bed flats(i clean about 30 of them but not all the downstairs flats)the frames are oxidized as well.

I still clean them, if the downstairs complain, I point out it the same when it rains.

3.cleaning conny roofs.

Never had a problem

4.climbing over locked gates

I always telephone my customers the night before, so they can unlock these gates, I also have spare keys for the ones who don't want them left unlocked.


5.badly flakey old wooden frames

Just clean the glass.

[williamx]

The HSE say that there are 60 deaths and thousands of injuries suffered every year from ladder falls.

You might be sick of the heath and safety rules, but they are not going to go away.

[daz1977]

The HSE say that there are 60 deaths and thousands of injuries suffered every year from ladder falls.

You might be sick of the heath and safety rules, but they are not going to go away.

how many of these are actually window cleaners falling whilst doing there job, 

[dazmond]

i just dont believe how you can clean a conservatory roof without a pointer/step ladders etc.

ive cleaned a few in my time and im 6ft 2in and ALWAYS needed to get up a few rungs to reach the back of the roof near the wall if theres a fence and no access to next door.

how can you clean flats with badly oxidized frames without doing a crap job and dropping milky white water on the flat downstairs that you dont clean?

as for 60 wc falling off ladders every year and dying thats just tough luck.thats life im afraid!

i do text/phone some custys up about locked gates but sometimes they forget or i forget!time to split the ladders!!

[daz1977]

dazmond the 60 deaths a year is every body, including old biddies change a light bulb on a foot stool ladder

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

1. up and over garages/flat roofs

I can still reach the majority of windows with my pole.

2.granny one bed flats(i clean about 30 of them but not all the downstairs flats)the frames are oxidized as well.

I still clean them, if the downstairs complain, I point out it the same when it rains.

3.cleaning conny roofs.

Never had a problem

4.climbing over locked gates

I always telephone my customers the night before, so they can unlock these gates, I also have spare keys for the ones who don't want them left unlocked.


5.badly flakey old wooden frames

Just clean the glass.

The trouble is, your points are all "me" "I" "mine" "my"

You have to remember that's only your round, with your customers & your circumstances!

[daz1977]

just got this off H and S web site

between 2 and 7 get killed every year because of ladders in GB   between 20 - 30 suffer major injuries

considering how many wc there are it is not a lot getting injured

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

What I do think would be a good idea though is that window cleaners should need a liscence for ladder use. To gain this they would have to attend a basic training course on the safe use of ladders & their maintenance.

We are all blessed with varying degrees of common sense & experience so the above would be a great benefit to the industry IMO.