[luther1]

Don't the 'regulations' state that if you are going to be up a ladder for 30(i'm sure it was that long) minutes or so then a quicker method is required. Feel free to correct me .

[old timer]

You can't use a guttervac on every job. What do you do then - use a cherry picker on a residential property and charge them £400 'cos a ladder could be dangerous?

No that is when as a competent person if you are, you risk assess it and choose the most appropriate method for the task ahead. just a thought, if an accident was to happen do you think it is the inspector who will have to prove you did it in an un safe way or you who has to prove you met all legislation and best practice

Oh and if you are using the ladder you must make sure the user is competent to use it and the ladder has been inspected by a competent person, the ground is suitable and you take into account falling objects.

Thats alot to think about when all you need to do is chuck a ladder up and clean the gutter

and after all that ladderwork is only suitable for short durations 15-30 mins...lets hope it is a small gutter

[trevor perry]

i havnt used a guttervac but on looking at them i can see they carry risks too ie the use of electricity in wet conditions debris falling from gutters on yourself and passers by, the chance of dislodging loose cast iron guttering not to mention sections of guttervac becoming loose and falling then there is manual handling issues i know some on here have mentioned thatwhen guttervac pole is full of debris it can become very heavy if this is in someones hands with no experience and held at an awkward angle this could become a dangerous situation so these risks also have to be looked at, just because you are working from the ground doesnt always make it safer.
   i am not trying to be argumentative with andy but discussions like this may lead to some better guidelines than what are being put forward at the moment

[luther1]

Is the 15-30 minute duration, per pitch of the ladder or per job?

[old timer]

i havnt used a guttervac but on looking at them i can see they carry risks too ie the use of electricity in wet conditions debris falling from gutters on yourself and passers by, the chance of dislodging loose cast iron guttering not to mention sections of guttervac becoming loose and falling then there is manual handling issues i know some on here have mentioned thatwhen guttervac pole is full of debris it can become very heavy if this is in someones hands with no experience and held at an awkward angle this could become a dangerous situation so these risks also have to be looked at, just because you are working from the ground doesnt always make it safer.
   i am not trying to be argumentative with andy but discussions like this may lead to some better guidelines than what are being put forward at the moment

Good point, i suppose it is a case of looking at what is the most hazardous by risk rating each method and what are the easiest to control by using collective measures and the use of PPE

[old timer]

Is the 15-30 minute duration, per pitch of the ladder or per job?

HSE guidance states the following 'Only work on a ladder for a maximum of 15 - 30 minutes at a time' - in one position

Not the clearest of advice though is it

[luther1]

Is the 15-30 minute duration, per pitch of the ladder or per job?

HSE guidance states the following 'Only work on a ladder for a maximum of 15 - 30 minutes at a time' - in one position

Not the clearest of advice though is it

As clear as mud!
There isn't a window on my round that i couldn't clean within that time frame,or indeed did clean until i went WFP

[trevor perry]

the federation did a video on ladder use called walk up walk down i think and it had terry burrows using the ladder there are a few instances where the ladder was placed in positions where any one with any competancy would have positioned ladder totally different than what is shown, in one instance the ladder was placed out slightly further so it was on the flags instead of the grass because flags are a firm solid base, but what if the flags had been slippy the safest place to position ladder would of been in the grass up against the flag edge

[gewindows]

HSE guidance states the following 'Only work on a ladder for a maximum of 15 - 30 minutes at a time' - in one position

I find any longer and the bird Im trying to ogle from the 7th rung has cottoned on to the fact that there is some pervert still hanging around halfway up his ladder and he normally never takes that long on a job.

[george formby]

the cleaning industry  is dangerous in all aspects you can control the risks by doing more courses educating your employees but does not mean that you wiil prevent  all accidents alltogether and that you will never have them?

[luther1]

HSE guidance states the following 'Only work on a ladder for a maximum of 15 - 30 minutes at a time' - in one position

I find any longer and the bird Im trying to ogliefrom the 7th rung has cottoned on to the fact that there is some pervert still hanging around halfway up his ladder and he normally never takes that long on a job.

Don't you only know the one position anyway Matt?

[gewindows]

Im sat here trying to think which one that is, so it would seem I dont even know that one 

[luther1]

Ha ha. Same here. 

[drwindows]

competent is to have both practical experience and qualification

SO what you're saying is that by your convoluted definition to be competent we have to do a qualification, which AS LUCK WOULD HAVE IT you happen to provide.  Uncanny that is

Why dont you stop spamming this forum, and least tell us how much you claim from the government for each window cleaner you con into doing one of your pointless NVQs.  How much is it?  is it £500?

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

Some of the above comments show just how difficult it is to help some see the importance of their own safety.

If you decide to use ladders or scaffold or cherry picker or gutter vac a risk assessment will show that you have thought about what you are doing. If you employ or have contractors work for you it is a must (actually you only need to provide written risk assessments if you employ 5 or more but it will cover your back nontheless)

As for cost and time. If it costs to hire a gutter vac or extra stuff in order to do a job, pass it on. A lot of times we price up a job based on what WE would pay and try to fit it to the time rater than work out the cost and profit and charge accordingly. We dont HAVE to take on every job we get enquiries about.

[gewindows]

I dont think the issue is operatives not seeing the importance of their own safety.

I am fully aware of my own mortality. I am also equally aware of my own competence.

It is the ones that assume we arent capable and competent, assume we are inexperienced and assume we are not capable of making judgements and decisions that we have done on a daily basis (on numerous occasions) for years and years that are the ones who are unaware.

[Sunshine/Cleaning]

I dont think the issue is operatives not seeing the importance of their own safety.

I am fully aware of my own mortality. I am also equally aware of my own competence.

It is the ones that assume we arent capable and competent, assume we are inexperienced and assume we are not capable of making judgements and decisions that we have done on a daily basis (on numerous occasions) for years and years that are the ones who are unaware.

I think that is part of the problem. Because we have done the same thing for years and years bad habits evolve without our noticing them.

[gewindows]

Thats just complacency on your part, going on a course wont change that.

[HIGH LEVEL WINDOW CLEANERS (scrimmy)]

I have some trade ladders three sections 2.4 closed so that they fit inside the roof of my scudo maxi, a stand off, and ladder limpets.

I'm wfp, but case law from 1934 notwithstanding i do have to use ladders at times to do my job.

I don't think your seminar has much for me.

Then what was the point of asking about LSD  

i had a guy working for me a few years back, he was on the old wacky baccy, but he said he wouldnt go up ladders on LSD

i will get me coat

[Ian Mason]

I have some trade ladders three sections 2.4 closed so that they fit inside the roof of my scudo maxi, a stand off, and ladder limpets.

I'm wfp, but case law from 1934 notwithstanding i do have to use ladders at times to do my job.

I don't think your seminar has much for me.

Then what was the point of asking about LSD  

i had a guy working for me a few years back, he was on the old wacky baccy, but he said he wouldnt go up ladders on LSD

i will get me coat

Surely being on LSD is trip hazard, & a different subject all together.