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trees

  • Posts: 117
A contract or non contract question?????
« on: February 11, 2010, 06:25:16 pm »
Now I have been on a certain site for a number of years and now there is no contract in place and the new people are bringing in some ridiculous new unworkable rules. Seems like every day something has changed and its beginning to really annoy me to the point I dont really want to be there.
 Now if I was to walk away from it what sort of notice should I give them?
Also there are a couple of members of staff I have there and cant relocate them where would they stand if I was to walk away and a new company came in? as in if I have make them redundant and a new company comes in will TUPE rules still apply as obviously I would ike to know they are being looked after

Thanks in advance from a very frustrated and annoyed cleaner??????????????? >:( >:( >:( >:(

Pristine Clean

  • Posts: 1149
Re: A contract or non contract question?????
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2010, 06:34:51 pm »
When you say no contract in place are you meaning no formal written contract?

Are you a contract cleaner with your staff at that site or are you employed direct by the company?

Was there a Gentlemans Agreement "Verbal Contract" it still stands up in court and ACAS will treat it as a standard contract under employment law. Check and telephone ACAS

If you are a contract cleaner with staff that has been there for a number of years then TUPE will apply indeed. Even if no formal written contract.

If you walk away you will need to find redundancy monies for your staff unless you can relocate them very near to the existing site or they can claim redundancy from you as "Detrimental effect" caused them to leave.

Dave
"You have to except that some days you are the statue and other days you are a pigeon"

Pristine Clean

  • Posts: 1149
Re: A contract or non contract question?????
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 06:39:24 pm »

What do you mean here,

Now I have been on a certain site for a number of years and now there is no contract in place and the new people are bringing in some ridiculous new unworkable rules.

Is there a new cleaning contractor in place? That has taken on the staff employed by you.

Please could you make it clearer for me. Sorry to be a pain.

Dave
"You have to except that some days you are the statue and other days you are a pigeon"

trees

  • Posts: 117
Re: A contract or non contract question?????
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 06:48:35 pm »
Its my own cleaning company and I employ the people who are there.
With regards to unworkable rules I mean in the way of paper work basically we are looking at having to supply 40+ timesheets for various works on site. It has become a nightmare to the point of me wanting to pack it all in  >:( >:( >:( >:(

trees

  • Posts: 117
Re: A contract or non contract question?????
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 06:51:37 pm »
When you say no contract in place are you meaning no formal written contract?

yes

Are you a contract cleaner with your staff at that site or are you employed direct by the company?

cleaning company with staff


If you are a contract cleaner with staff that has been there for a number of years then TUPE will apply indeed. Even if no formal written contract.

If you walk away you will need to find redundancy monies for your staff unless you can relocate them very near to the existing site or they can claim redundancy from you as "Detrimental effect" caused them to leave.

only 1 member of staff has been there for more than 2 years



Dave

Pristine Clean

  • Posts: 1149
Re: A contract or non contract question?????
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2010, 07:37:43 pm »
OK firstly,

I would not walk out. But obviously when you are in the thick of it... I know its diffeent.

Even with no contract in place if a new cleaning company comes in - TUPE will apply providing you do not walk away.

If the other guy has been there over a year and you walk away I am not 100% where you stand as that is your choice and have effectively "your own doing" he has certain rights after 12 months.

Paper work, yes its a hassle. Time sheets, H&S, rISK ASSESMENTS the list goes on and on.

Work out how long the paper work is taking you. Maybe you could talk to them. and say to them you are reveiwing the contract due to the amount of time the paper work is taking.

Tell them it was not like this at the begining and now its just got too much not to include a charge for time.

Dave
"You have to except that some days you are the statue and other days you are a pigeon"

Pristine Clean

  • Posts: 1149
Re: A contract or non contract question?????
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2010, 07:44:42 pm »
With regards to time sheets could you not get the employees to fill in each one for each job, place them in a folder and hand in each time.

I take it you trust the staff to fill in time sheets. Or could you not look at getting a clocking in & out system in place.

It all depends if the contract is worth keeping.

Dave
"You have to except that some days you are the statue and other days you are a pigeon"

trees

  • Posts: 117
Re: A contract or non contract question?????
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2010, 08:06:38 pm »
I have already assigned the paperwork to the supervisor it just seems that whatever we do its not right
I think your right I will stick it out until they hopefully terminate the agreement or get another company in ;)

thankyou greatly for your advice pristine

Gilbert Sprous

  • Posts: 213
Re: A contract or non contract question?????
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2010, 08:14:35 pm »
One thing to key in on that pristine brought up is that you can raise the price, and hope they decide it is too much and look for an alternative quicker.  They may just take you up on the new price so you get a little extra dosh for your problems

Nick Head

  • Posts: 75
Re: A contract or non contract question?????
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2010, 08:16:01 pm »
Dave is right - there is a contract whether it is written or not but if there is a lesson to be learnt always get a contract signed.

Have you got written contracts of employment for your staff?

Paperwork is a pain but often there is legitimate reason your client wants it - find out why perhaps there is a quicker way - work with them, personally I would try and increase the charge in the first instance, this however should be your default.

However, which ever way you spin it you are in a difficult position with no written formal contract in place, so there are no terms of reference for any contractual arrangement - so as Dave rightly states if you walk TUPE or redundancy will apply.

Sorry to be so blunt but I hope this helps in some way.

Nick




 

Nicholas Head
Cleaning Intelligence

cml

  • Posts: 181
Re: A contract or non contract question?????
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 09:59:11 am »
A Contract does exists -this is absolute.

Consider what your customary practices were before the changes and any other letters and meetings of agreements and write these down. Especially the working relationship between you and the former owners/employer, issues about payments & invoices etc., then to get an aspect of implied terms visit your local job centre's website, talk to Acas etc or more importantly a legal representative and this would give you a basis to evaluate and formulate previous agreed terms. (Acas should be sufficient  if wanting to avoid legal costs at this stage but should not be overlooked).

Draft a specification of works done previously that the former client requested and your staff had been doing for a number of years. With this foundation compare what this new owners wants you to change.  You can consider this process as your variation of contract stage and it is open to both parties to agree these new rules.  Don't feel intimidated and that you have to comply with everything they say unless it is considered a reasonable request i.e. it relates to working standards, H&S etc.   Once you have this if there are more works required than originally agreed then you need to consider talking about "increased pricing" for additional works.

Now, do not make the same mistake twice, get these clients to formulise a written contract with all new terms and pricing.  Daily changes  should not be allowed, however you can compromise where it relates to standards and remedial works need to take effect.

It is not exactly clear although asked by a member what paperwork is requested from you.  It could be that they are more efficient than the former owners and need to comply with legislations, working practices etc.  in which case this is a good thing but a head ache for you but benefits you in the end.  This is the general way you should be heading or be at if operating for some time. I am causious that you appear to be running this contract without an agreement when a number of staff are also involved.  Do you have agreements for other sites you're operating in?  Why is there a request for timesheets?  Are they paying your employees directly? What is the arrangement here?  Surely you should be invoicing directly and on payment pay your own staff thus operating your own PAYE Scheme.  This point needs clarification.
Assigning the timesheet management to your supervisior isn't a problem but you seem to indicate 'whatever you do is  not right' what do you mean?  Please give an example.

In reference to walking away from the contract you would need to consider the impacts of doing so.  Yes you can give reasonable notice to terminate your contract with the new owners but the effects of this would as explained above impact on your employees. This includes  dismissals and redundancies covering employees who have also worked for less than 2 years.  Where you find you cannot relocate these employees if you were to terminate your contract before a new company takes over,  such employees can only look to ET for remedies and if you stay until a new contractor takes over then TUPE will come into effect.

Its your business and yes some clients can be a challenge but try to find the mutual ground.  Let then see you are in control of your business, skilled and know what you are doing.  If they think you are a push over they will continue to make demands for which you will not be rewarded.  You cannot be in a position to posibbly run a contract without making profits only servicing your clients needs and keeps employees in a job.  You need to also obtain a monetary benefit from servicing this contract.  If these changes are eating into your profit margins then you know what must be done.

I hope this helps and good luck



Nick Head

  • Posts: 75
Re: A contract or non contract question?????
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 09:06:33 pm »

Some comprehensive advice from CML, expanding on some of the points already risen - but as usually many very valid points.

One point to clarify ACAS are able to advise on Employment issues and not general contractual ones - personally I would try to resolve the issues amicably and try to reach a compromise.

Nick

Nicholas Head
Cleaning Intelligence