[Neil Mc Anulty]

Can anyone clear up this mystery? I recieved a letter from a buiding cotractors saying that sub contractors could not charge VAT. So i didnt. I recently had a visit and they told me that I should have been charging VAT and were reclaiming the 17.5% of work done in the period.

It does say in the VAT construction guide that builders cleans are exempt but the VAT rep insists this is to do with site clearance before constrution actually takes place. My accountant read the book and agreed it is Zero rated only to be told different by the VAT rep. Back to square one.

Neil

[martin19842]

hi there,


we work with the likes of George Wimpey, and Bovis to mention a few and have doen for some time we are VAT registered and VAT is charges by us for build cleans, and this was clearly stated on on VAT registration for type of business being caaried out.

regards

martin

[pristineclean]

Hi Neil

My strong opinion is that the VAT rep is wrong on this one. Your acid test guide as to whether a builders clean is subject to VAT or not will come from the company themselves. Quite simply, they'll pay you VAT if it is, and won't if it's not.

I'm really surprised at this one, it's not a grey area in any way providing that you are working on a new residential building site. It has a downside in that you're not meant to claim back the VAT on any materials purchased for that job (yeah right  )

[Tim Downer]

Hi there

Same business as Martin.....However, we do not charge VAT even though we are VAT registered.

Zero rated on cleaning new properties when there is no one occuping the home in question.

This we apply to Builders, Sparkles etc etc.

However, any work we do where the property is occupied is charged VAT

We have been doing this for George Wimpey, Taylor Woodrow etc etc

So one day we could say clean the windows of an empty property ie £20 total
The same day, developer may ask us to clean the windows of a property that is inhabited, becuse the building site has created a lot of dust.....we would charge £20 + VAT

Crazy or What??

Regards

Tim

[pristineclean]

That's an even better way of determining the difference, and I'm guessing would also be a good way of determining what is being carried out under CIS, which would be handy if a smaller company or individual was CIS4

[Neil Mc Anulty]

The VAT are insisting that As a builders clean is not directly related to the construction of the property it is not zero rated.

[BSF]

Ive been following this post with some interest, at the end off the day it doesn’t matter to the builder if you add Vat because they claim it back,  I’m Vat registered and always charge it,  as I know I have to.

[pristineclean]

Like Tim and Martin, I carry out a lot of work for main contractors on a self billing basis. Since this is a topic that could affect people who have never carried out this work before, I should clarify that by saying that this a way of getting paid which means that I submit applications for payment (not an invoice) at the end of the month and they send me out a certificate of payment, including details of retention, CIS deductions and VAT where applicable. I then send a copy of this back with a CIS certificate confirming the amount which has been paid.  I do produce an invoice, but only for record keeping and it never gets sent to the builders.

Customs & Excise appear to be unusually harsh in this instance, and I'm not being sarcastic  they really have been v helpful with me. Their argument that the cleaning isn't related to the construction of the property wouldn't sit well with Inland Revenue (try getting builders cleans without a Construction Industry Scheme card). They do produce a booklet, and I got great advice from both the Customs helpline and from a VAT seminar.

One way round Neils dilemma might be to secure the certificate of exemption for these particular works from the main contractor.

it really doesnt matter to building companies as to whether you charge vat or not, but for me to charge it when I shouldnt be might make a poor impression on surveyors who know that I shouldnt be.

[BSF]

I have carried out work for building companies, although not enough to qualify for the cis exemption certificate,  but have always charged Vat and never been questioned.

[Tim Downer]

to pfwest

what is the point of becoming cis registered to get paid by the developers.....when you do not seemingly need to?

what do you do different to the rest of us?

Not to have a go at you, but do you deal with smaller developers? or do you work for the big guys?

I have had a chat with our accounts dept., and they again say the same as my earlier comment above.....we would love to charge VAT as we are charged it from our cleaning suppliers, vans etc and would really like to get it back, but if the Tax man seems to say that we cannot charge VAT on unoccupied properties.....how come some of you are?

When I get a chance to (bit busy for the next week or so!!) I will ask our accounts dept. to show me where it says when and when not we are to charge VAT on new builds, because i am very confused.

Kind Regards

Tim

[BSF]

I have/do carried/carry out work for smaller developers, I am Cis registered in order to get paid, my company doesn’t generate enough income from the construction industry (30k for each director Ltd) to qualify for the exemption certificate, so I am Cis 4.  If I wasn’t (in most cases) I wouldn’t get paid, they take the 18% deduction and give me a voucher when they pay the invoice, I don’t pretend to be an expert in Vat and Tax matters, I leave that to my accountant, the post was about charging Vat on new builds, If I am doing something wrong I’m sure that my accountant will inform me, that’s what I pay him for.  I do charge Vat because I have to.  At the moment from the research I have done, I am quite happy only to source work from the smaller developers for the time being, but whatever the size of the developer I would charge Vat on any work my company carried out. 
So in answer to your question/s I don’t think I do things different from the rest of you, I get/organize/do the work get paid, but unlike you (Tim) do understand that it doesnt make a blind bit of difference to the builder if I charge Vat or not(apart from the obvious, interest on cleared funds), I charge it because I'm Vat registered! and Mr George Wimpey, redrow, etc etc, gets it back!!!!

Kind regards

Paul

[BSF]

Tim,

One last point that I forgot to mention,

to pfwest


I have had a chat with our accounts dept., and they again say the same as my earlier comment above.....we would love to charge VAT as we are charged it from our cleaning suppliers, vans etc and would really like to get it back,
Kind Regards

Tim

It doesn’t matter that your employer is charged Vat on any supplies(If Vat registered) they buy, because they claim it back on the Vat return, and if they charged the builder Vat on the Job in question, they would have to pay it to customs & excise, this is my point.

Without having a go at you, please speak to your accounts department and they will explain that the Vat the company pays is claimed back, dont speak to the office junior that creates the invoice, speak to one of your boss's that will explain how the Vat system work's, it's really simple, any Vat you pay, you do get back!  its not rocket science

Kind regards


Paul

[pristineclean]

With this post. I've now set a personal record for postings on one subject 

Where I seem to be adrift from the main group, is that I appear to be the only one who doesn't invoice for my building cleaning work. I submit payment applications for contract work and Site Instruction work, and the main contractor sends me the payment together with the details including VAT where applicable. In effect, it's not my decision as to whether VAT is applicable or not since the main contractors will have, and produce, a certificate of exemption where required. I don't carry out works for small building companies, so that might represent the difference in the billing procedure..

[martin19842]

hi there,

pristine

developers work on different systems, we work for both, on the one hand the self billing tender client, who works on a tick report from site, theythen pay for work done, and the other where we submit an invoicr for every job on every plot.

so we see both sides, and ive not had any problems at all.  in fact VAT is the least of my problems. it s the end of June, most developers end of half year, its crazy out there.  but hey its great

regards

martin

[Tim Downer]

Hi

I havent forgotten my comment above.....been too busy out there cleaning, and when i get back to the office all the bods have gone home??
Will have a chat with them next week.....Maybe I should be an accountant and be able to do 9 - 5 !!!

Kind Regards

Tim

[martin19842]

hello there.


well now this muddies the water a little,

we have one developer who works on self biling, tick sheets, ( a national builder) and they dont pay VAT to us on all TENDERED works, however anything that isnt on the TENDER ie on an SI is VATABLE.

then we have 3 other NATIONAL HOUSE BUILDERS, who operate on a non self billing method, and have paid the VAT on every job irrespective of whether it is in the tender or not.

therefore, confused, cause we are, but i have a meeting with the VAT later in JULY and will discuss with them.

so we will charge VAT to the ones that want it and no VAT to the ones that dont, cause quite rightly as they interpret the rules, it is a NEW BUILD.

oh what fun

regards

martin

[BSF]

Hi Martin,

My issue was wth Tim, who stated that he wished his employer could charge Vat, Why? Ive tried to find a company called Pds (but cant) so obviously their not a large company,  we all know that builders dont charge Vat, but if they are charged it, they claim it back!  As I have said in a previous post, the only reason they dont/wont  like paying it is that they miss out on a bit of interest from the banks, but hey... dont they make enough money!

regards


Paul

[Tim Downer]

I thought this was a forum to help each other out in the cleaning business with problems and questions, and others can help by putting their ideas etc to them for consideration.

Why do some do a search on fellow cleaners companies and say that as they don't exist anywhere.....they can't be a large company?? What is it to do with them how big each of us is?

This is the wrong site to tell people like me to do things like "not talking to the Office Junior" and speak to someone higher up when the sister company I work alongside has a staffing of over 80 people who work in an industry that works along with the Big Developers.

And next time some of us want to slag another company on this site off, and make comments that they "are obviously not a large company", most of us on this site are not large companies and work for themselves, and work very hard at it.

As it happens we are not doing too badly seeing as we have only been going for a year....and you will not find us anywhere listed under PDS.....because they are the initials to our company name and we don't have a web site.....far too busy as it is.

Should keep our comments about each other to ourselves and use this site for what it is intended for......CLEANING ISSUES !

I feel Chuffing better now.

Tim

[martin19842]

 hi there,

tim, its been a really tough week for us, and im atually having a day off today to escape.


my guys have today stated the build clean on one of our developers new regional offices, they move in at the end of the month,so we better get that one right, else they'll be trouble

have a good one

regards

martin

[BSF]

Tim

to pfwest

what is the point of becoming cis registered to get paid by the developers.....when you do not seemingly need to?

what do you do different to the rest of us?

Not to have a go at you, but do you deal with smaller developers? or do you work for the big guys?

I have had a chat with our accounts dept., and they again say the same as my earlier comment above.....we would love to charge VAT as we are charged it from our cleaning suppliers, vans etc and would really like to get it back, but if the Tax man seems to say that we cannot charge VAT on unoccupied properties.....how come some of you are?

When I get a chance to (bit busy for the next week or so!!) I will ask our accounts dept. to show me where it says when and when not we are to charge VAT on new builds, because i am very confused.

Kind Regards

Tim

I answered all of your questions above, again I will say: My company is Cis registered because in most cases it has to be to receive payment from this type of work, Vat doesnt matter if you are Vat registered, my company is by no means large, In these posts I am trying to stop other posters getting confused by some comments made. By the way i'm not slagging your company off,  your post above was suggesting that It was me that didnt know what I was doing.

Regards

Paul