[angela stone]

hi guys,

I'm learning the system pretty fast today.  I am posting this a) for a little advice if anyone has any and b) to warn others not to follow my short comings.

Before you all starting shouting at me in capital letters I would like to say that I have been going for 2 and a half years with minimal staffing problems but recently I have taken on a lot of staff at the same time (through the jobcentre) and I have realised that I should have done a lot of homework before trusting that people are going to be as fair with me as I am with them.

Anyway I will try and keep it brief:

one member of staff started work on the 7th september after doing a 2 week work trial through the jobcentre. Std of work through the trial was excellent so she can do the job, turned up every day, no problems at all.
Gave her a contract on 7th Sept, sent me a txt on 8th sept saying she was ill thru the night so wasnt coming in.

She booked a week's holiday for the end of september which hadn't been accrued (ype I know totally soft), she has not been paid for this.  She requested another holiday for the end of soct and I have refused this as she hasn't accrued it and said that she could take it unpaid if she wanted to.

She sent another text yesterday saying that she had been ill through the night again and that she wouldnt be in.
The member of staff who worked with her the day before was asking if I though she would be in on friday ( her next day to be due in) and I said I didn't see why not.  She then told me that she had a conversation with her which amounted to the fact that she was going to get a sick note as if she left whilst on sick she would get her benefits.  I wasn't sure whether to believe this or not.  Today she calls me to tell me she has a sick note for a month for depression.  Cracking.

Sorry that wasn't brief at all!!!

anyway my questions are:

1)  I have read something on the direct gov and business link website which says that to get ssp you have to earn £95 per week on average over the last 8 weeks.  Well she hasn't been employed 8 weeks and the only wage slip she has shows an average of £87 per week due to leaving early for appointments and other sick days. So does this mean that she isn't entitled? as I didn't realise we as employers have to pay this!!!

2) is there anyway I can get that holiday pay back which I have paid her or do I need to forget about that (as I know she isn't coming back)

3) is there anyway I can get rid of her whilst she is on the sick?

Appointment with a business adviser is defo getting booked!

sorry to rant guys!

You work hard for a living and you just get poop on  

Ange
x

[Paul Heath]

O dear...Don't you love staff!!!
We do have to pay SSP but you claim it back, not all of it, against your paye/ni payment to HMRC. I think from memory they only pay 87% of it....once again us small business helping out the government
Somehow i don't think she is entilled to SSP as there is a qualifiing period and she does not meet it.
Holiday pay i think by the sounds of it you can forget it.
As she has only been employed by you for a few weeks i don't think she has any claim against you and you have been more than obliging by paying her holiday that she is not entilted too.
You do have to be careful these days as the employment tribunal takes the view that we are guilty and it is up to us to prove our innocents!! I thought law was innocent until proven guilty...not so.
Get some pro advice.

[vacman]

quote: "She booked a week's holiday for the end of september which hadn't been accrued (ype I know totally soft), she has not been paid for this.  She requested another holiday for the end of soct and I have refused this as she hasn't accrued it and said that she could take it unpaid if she wanted to."



I was quite, quite sure there was nothing stopping anyone from taking holiday that they'd not yet accrued, because it would come out of the final salary cheque anyway?

[Fox]

SSP - you don't have to pay this unless she has paid NI contributions for the last 12 weeks with you.  If you do and it amounts to more than 13% of your NI emp conts you can claim all of it back, otherwise you must issue her with a SSP1 form so she can claim direct from social

Holiday Pay - If she has worked in arrears and you have a clause in her contract allowing you too then deduct hol pay from wages, if no clause, get one before you employ any more.  If not you can write to her stating that you require the money back and hope she pays it, failing that you can take her to small claim court for it, HOWEVER - you can not so this until her employment is finished and she will still be accruing holidays even though she is sick! (MADNESS).  You have no legal obligation to pay holiday that is not accrued in the first year of employment, thereafter you have to pay whether they have accrued or not. (I have lost loads this yr because of this).

Sacking people on the sick is not feasible, I would get the other cleaner to make a statement to the fact of what she has said though.  Are you a member of the federation of small businesses?  If not I suggest you join, it's about 200 per year with free business advice which would help you in this circumstance, you definately need to seek advice before you do anything on this one.

Sorry to hear you having difficulty but welcome to the world of being an employer some of these things are unavoidable I'm afraid.

Fox

[gordonswindows]

Hi Angela

the above advice is excellent and I cannot add to it except to say don't worry we have all and still do get taken by these types of employee.

But there are some diamonds out there you just got to keep looking

Gordon

[DREAM CLEAN]

Hi Angela,

Do not sack her or even replace her while she is off sick.

Put one of your other team members in her place as cover but you could put a new person into that place.

Now I am not 100% sure but I think You can get rid of them while of sick by calling her into a meeting to disscus her illness and make it formal, you can disscus if she intends on coming back is there anything you can do as an employer to help with her recovery, you may find that on the first/second meeting she will give up and hand her notice in.

She has not worked long enough for you to have any rights so as soon as she is back at work let her go.

It is a joke the way they play the system bloody goverment is too soft.
My daughter is very and my wife has had to give up her full time job to be a full time care person and I have to work extra hard to cover both wages.

Tell that employee to come to my house and see how sick my daughter is then she will know what ill is all about.
  Nick

[newbroom]

It is possible to sack someone whilst they are on sick leave ring acas for advice 08457 474747

[Scotbrite]

Fox,
Are you saying that if someone in there second year of employment with you leaves in say February and your holiday year runs from Jan to Dec that you/we are obliged to pay them the full years holiday allowance,

Regards,

Ron

[vacman]

Thats how i read it and had previously understood it. They can take paid holiday any time they want (so long as it is mutually agreed); if it has yet to be accrued then the money comes off their leaving salary.

If you pay them a month in arrears there shouldnt be a problem because holiday entitlement that early on shouldn't be exceeding a typical months worth of hours.

[Fox]

Hi Ron

Not sure what you're asking but basically if your year runs Jan to Dec and an employee asks in Feb for two weeks leave by authorising the leave you are obliged to pay them for the holiday even before they accrue it.  However if an employee in their 2nd year finishes their employment the holiday you would have to pay in their last payment would only be what they had accrued to date.

Basically if in the first senario you would hope that the employee returned to work after their leave and worked the amount of time to cover the taken holiday, if they leave and they haven't worked for that length of time as long as you have it their contract you can decuct what they owe you from their last pay.  If you haven't got in the contract and the employee refuses to pay you back you would need to take them to the small claims court.

Hope that makes sense but if you need more info let me know.

Another mad thing I learnt (have just attended an employment law seminar) if an employee books a holiday and calls you when they are on that holiday to tell you they are sick you have to book the holiday as sick days and reinstate the employees holiday entitlement for the time they are sick!

Fox

[vacman]

"Another mad thing I learnt (have just attended an employment law seminar) if an employee books a holiday and calls you when they are on that holiday to tell you they are sick you have to book the holiday as sick days and reinstate the employees holiday entitlement for the time they are sick!"

Fox, being on the ball as you are, i am suprised that you didnt know that already.......i know a lot of people don't know it but i have met several people in the past who used this to their advantage.

[Fox]

I was surprised I hadn't heard that one aswell!  I am normally right up to date on everything but that must have been one that slipped through, if I had of known I would have used it when I was an employee