[petejay]

Hi Everyone. I have been working for a parish council for 5 years now with a contract that was very free and easy and 'loose' cleaning a village hall. However the introduction of a new clerk around 2 years ago has meant that it has been all down hill. My previous contract as a self employed cleaner entitled me to 15 hours work a week but expired at around the time the new clerk started. After a great deal of moaning I got a new contract last may which cut my hours to 12, froze my money when i had been promised a pay rise and loaded up my schedule to the hilt! Rules of hall hire state that all tables chairs etc should be put away by the people hiring the hall. Obviously this does not happen and although my new contract states that chairs should be placed in the relevant rooms by myself, common sense and my lack of time in the mornings limit what I can actually do. Already I am getting written letters from the clerk saying that floors are wet when people come in in the morning. I have tried telling him that my reduced hours and having to put away equipment which have been left out impairs the service I give, but to no avail. If I have meetings the councillors and the clerk try to steamroller me because I am on my own. Is there any union representation or other that I could use as a backup in my precarious position.

Many thanks, Pete.

[suffolkclean]

Could you not explain your hours have been cut & your also being asked to put chairs out things will have to be left out to compensate for this. Sounds like they are just unrealistic about what can be done in the time, there are customers out there like this and they are the ones you don't want!

Try to get other work so you can ditch them if they don't want to listen to you.

[newbroom]

 I would suggest that you schedule a meeting with your line manager and discuss your grievances before you start talking to unions. I'm sure there are practical/ financial reasons to your hours being reduced, surely you was given the reasons for the reduction. Why after 2 years are you now complaing about your hours.

Are you still under contract has a self employed cleaner if so you are not a direct employer of the village hall so i don't  see how a union could help you. If on the other hand this is your only  employment then you are actually employed by the village hall, which would make your self employed contract illegal.

[vacman]

Well i think the last two replies more or less say all there is to be said.

However, add to it the question "what on earth do these people in the Parish Hall think they are going to get if you leave them?". They wont get many people queing up to do 12 hours self-employed work per week (assuming you are still SE, you dont actually make that bit very clear).

Assuming this isnt your only work and that you do other cleaning, why not just look for 12 hours work elsewhere? Sounds like a lot of bother from what you've said and the people dont sound very nice to work for either. Not sure why if you were self employed they gave you a contract and stated in it details of a pay-rise? Are YOU not the one setting your own rates/ prices? I don't get that bit.

[vacman]

If on the other hand this is your only  employment then you are actually employed by the village hall, which would make your self employed contract illegal.

Newbroom, i agree with this bit totally, but my question is, how do people (in this case the villiage hall) know that the person they are hiring as self-employed has other work? I've always wondered about that. When i invoice people i do it on letter headed paper and I guess people trust from that that i have other jobs. But i've never been asked.

[newbroom]

Hi Vacman,

I suppose it relies on the honesty of the cleaner to inform them of his current employment staus. In regards to  the original post i'mnot sure the whole scenario has been given.

[vacman]

hello newbroom

so what happens if -only as an example- i set up a cleaning business and i then agree to do say 10 hours a week for one person, with no contract. I do also do one-off work, but after 12 months i have only done one other job. How does that leave me? Does the work i do for the 'other' people have to be done within certain time frames, eg one job every month, in addition to the other regular work.

I ask this as i am considering returning to full-time employment for a company and i'll be on their payroll as their employee, BUT i also want to remain part-self employed (my accountant has said this can be done) so that i can legally do some cleaning work as and when i want to. But it won't be regular cleaning work, just bits and bobs, and quite likely that i will only be doing cleaning for one person at a time, if you follow?

[petejay]

Thanks for the messages guys. Just to clarify I have been self employed and still am, for the past 6 years. Yes I have work,  (houses and industrial) as well as the Parish Council hall. I have been fortunate to have enough work for 6 days and more each week with regular customers. Rate wise I charge £11 p.h for houses and £12 commercial units. With my original contract with the parish hall which they asked me to undertake, they supplied all equipment and chemicals and payed £10 p.h back in 2003. Each April I would put in for a pay rise which has bumped me up to £12.30 p.h. for 15 hours work each week.However since the new clerk and parish councillors have taken over I have now been forced to supply all tools materials etc still at £12.30 p.h but for 12 hours each week.This began in May this year.
 They found out just recently that I was still using the henry hoover and double bucket janitorial floor system which I purchased on their behalf using their money only a year ago through my supplier. The result of this is that they have locked them in the store and made me give the key to it back, so no one now uses them!
Now I realise that you are right when you say just look for something else, but I don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face. The money is good and the 6-8 am hours mean that they don't interfere with my other clients. I only ask about representation because when they do oblige me with meetings it is a bit like dragons den! Certainly I do not want to storm off or do anything rash. For example it was put to me last week in a letter that complaints had been received from the nursery group who start every morning at 8am. That the floors were still wet on their arrival. I sent a note back to the clerk suggesting that if he did not want the floors being wet that they would have to remain dirty instead due to the fact that the schedule had increased and my hours had been cut. This and several other incidents recently are really bringing things to boiling point. Suggestions anyone.

[vacman]

Yes, leave.

I know you say that you dont want to cut your nose off, but in my opinion you'd only be doing so IF it was that the people were actually OK to work for. But they're not, they're making you very unhappy.

Something has to give and from what you have said it doesnt sound like the people who pay you are going to budge, therefore its up to you to put up with it or leave. I know this sounds unkind, but i mean it as it is is written; i'm not trying to be nasty.

What you want (by the sound of it) is to do the hours which suit you, at the rate of pay you are happy with, and without complaints. And why shouldnt you. But the reality is that so far its only the hours which you are getting; the remainder is making you very unhappy.

I have to say that one of the reasons i went self employed was to avoid overbearing bosses like the ones you are describing. There is no way i would stand for it from a client, i would walk and keep walking. It sounds to me like you are in search of a magic answer as to how you can make these people come round to your way of thinking. But in truth there is no answer. You can't even say that the fact that they like you is enough for them to want to change their attitude, as you give the impression that they neither like nor respect you and the work you do.

When you talked about unions, what did you hope they would do? Was it to get them to make your client change their thinking, or was it to make a financial claim, etc? I do really have to question why it is that you seem so keen to keep doing business with them 

[Gilbert Sprous]

I think there are a few questions still to be answered to find out your true status.  The contract you keep mentioning sounds more like an employment contract rather than a client contract.  When I want to increase my contracts, I do not apply for the raise, I send notice of an increase.  I decide what the increase will be not the client.  They of course have the option of looking elsewhere for cleaning at the end of the contract, but my terms and conditions state that "at my discretion there can be a rate increase not to exceed a certain amount each year". 

If you had an original contract in place and all you are doing each year is updating the rates, the original contract wording should be in force and if it states that they will provide equipment and materials you should take a copy in and remind them.  Also if it states how many hours you will receive you have a strong case to make them increase your hours.

One thing to keep in mind, if you go to a client with your contract in hand making demands.  There is a chance that it will not be renewed.  Your choices are to stand up and enforce your contract or suck it up and move on.   I have clients that like to have some things done that are not necessarily in our performance schedule, but I know if I prefer to keep that contract I will have to perform.  If there demands started to affect my margins then I would give them notice to find another cleaner. 

I think the wording of your contract is important.  Does it state between you and them or your business and them.  If it is between you and them then if you have been working there more than a couple of years I think you have a pretty strong case and may even have some redundancy rights if they try and cancel the contract.  But if it is between you and your business, you may have to decide if you want to keep it or leave it.  If it is between you and your business you can probably put some one in there at 7 GBP per hour and still make the rest as margin, free up that time and find you something else.  For the same time frame you will be making 16 - 17 GBP per hour.

Cheers

[vacman]

Gilbert, surely if the OP claims to be self-employed then he/she will have had to submit an invoice in order to be paid? Never have i been paid by a business UNTIL i had sent them some sort of invoice first. Therefore would this in its self determine the status of employment?

[Gilbert Sprous]

Yes a very good point, but as I went back through to recheck, it does not state being paid by invoice just by contracted hours.  I think that if there are no invoices involved it holds a case for employment instead of self employment which would give rights as an employee.  Although I must admit I am not an employment solicitor lol

Cheers

[vacman]

Hi Gilbert

What i'm thinking is, is that they wouldnt have been able to draw the money from the funds to pay the cleaner, without an invoice or at least a reciept? 

But then like you say, you're not an employment lawyer (nor me lol) and nor am i a book keeper or accountant, so maybe it can be done?  petty cash maybe 

[newbroom]

Every organisation whether it is a business, shop, charity, or village hall requires account so it follows they would require reciepts, invoices etc..

To be blunt i don't think we are being given the complete picture, my gut instinct  tells me that its more like a gravy train hitting the buffers.

[vacman]

Yes, i agree with you NB.  :

[Pristine Clean]

Its very complicated. For someone to explain the in and outs of how their business works. Let alone how he invoices or charges or how it is being paid.

He can provide in a contract that for example that the cost of cleaning is £10,000 pa. The way they pay this maybe split into 12 equal amounts.

Defining whether it is for a set number of tasks or for a set number of task plus the time allowed to complete all task to a satisfactory standard.

As for the supplies it can be done that they purchase all of the equipment or he has to purchase it. Depends on the contract that was written and if indeed signed.

As it is to me, he does not want to leave. So he has to find a comprimise. Its all to easy for us to say then "Leave" I dont think we would just leave.. if we did this everytime there were complications we would all be unemployed no matter what our Actual employment status was. PAYE Self employed, Contracted.

So have a meeting with a task list. You know what is capable in a set number of hours. Get them to try it with you. To prove a point. If there is too much work then things will be missed and they wont be happy.

As for just getting rid of you, they cant just do that no matter what status you have. TUPE plays a very important part in Services. And that is what you are providing. If you are unaware of TUPE I would do some research. Its far to complicated for me to go into today.

Have a chat with ACAS its free and they could help if there is a tribunal.

Get your facts right, Have it written down, and dont be threatened by them but you must remain calm and collective and show that you are flexible.

Maybe all that needs to be done is a rota needs a little changing. Have you actualoly timed yourself on the tasks. This would also be a good thing to have in a meeting. Different people work at different speeds.

Dont give up fight to keep it.

Dave

[vacman]

Dave, i dont think anyone could knock you for your astute reply.

But to me the facts remain; ANYONE can make someones life a misery -laws and rules or not- and these people are upsetting the author of this thread. A mature and grown-up meeting of all parties is all well and good, but i dont understand how anyone is going to change anyones mind on this 

Look at it from another angle: if a commercial client was unhappy with the company they employed to do the cleaning, how much will they complain before they just throw in the towel and get a new company? Or if when shopping in Asda, someone gets hacked off with the service and decides its easier to just vote with their feet and use Tesco?

What i am getting at is that the misery that seems to be inflicted on the person concerned in this thread does not seem worth the money and the convieience that that job is bringing. Thats why i for one am saying walk away and leave them to it. Sometimes complaining is futile when the person you are complaining to can't or won't make changes.

[Gilbert Sprous]

Vacman,

I like the term "Vote with your feet" never heard that one before lol.

Dave,

It seems that most of your post would assume an employment contract instead of a self employed contract.  I could be wrong but it seems that the contract would have to be an employment contract if there was the ability to take it to tribunal.  As far as TUPE, I think we all would like to claim TUPE when a client says they are changing cleaners.  I still do some of my own cleaning and have been cleaning with some of my clients for a while.  If they decided to change cleaners, because I am the owner of the company I believe I would find it hard to say that I want protection under TUPE.

I think a lot of us are switching between employment contract and contracted cleaning because we are not sure of the status.  One thing that came to mind that might clear it up is the contract itself.  As a contract cleaner, I propose the contract, draw it up, decide the T and C's, and have the client sign.  If you are employed they would draw up the contract, decide the performance schedule and you would sign.  If I am correct in assuming (we all know what happens when you ass u me) that it would shed quite a bit of light on this thread if we knew the answer to how the contract was drawn up.

Cheers