[Tosh]

working from ladders IS legal

So is driving, but rules and regulations ALSO have to be adhered to.

I think this post eloquently sums up the use of ladders from a legal point of view.

[tacky]

legal up to 18ft .as long as u dont take longer than 30 mins on one job . h/s rules.            its safer with wfp . but LADDERS AR NOT BANNED

[Window Washers]

It's a good link, but typically 'wishy washy' and open to interpretation.

For example, 'Can the windows be cleaned from the ground, eg. water-fed pole? Yes/No'.

Errrr, I haven't got a water-fed pole, therefore 'No'...!

Then an extentable pole with applicator could be used, people choose not to use them 

[mci services]

window cleaning company near me has 30-40 employees and has a waterfed pole system, because of the amount of employees they are visited every year by H&S, they have at least ten vans and only one of them is wfp and is only used for work over 18ft the rest use ladders all day every day. you can use ladders even if you have wfp

[dave27]

it is not the police that have responsibility for enforcement but the local authority.

In areas where i work i am aware of at least 2 wc,s who havew been prosecuted for incorreect working
ie using laddders in a way that contravenes HSE regs. Also one wc who was given a 'written warning'
about using an unsecured 2m point on a shop front in city of london.

The answer is simple become proffesionals and get rid of the cowboys. Do everything by the book and we all be better off, better safety, better customers, better pay, better sleep.

[mci services]

just another thought : but the guys that are wfp and use ladders for access do you have a lad foot the ladder and tie the ladder to the flat roof, if not you are also breaking H&S regs.
from memory you can ladder to 6m or 18ft ish without being tied to building or footed or from 6m to 9m you must be footed and tied to building

not trying to wind anybody up here as i am wfp as well but all this H&S stuff gets right on my wick when i think most have broken a few rules throughout our careers and i for one went wfp for one reason only and that was to make more money. but i still ladder work that suits me to do so. so before stating regs please have a look at the regs on the links already provided then perceive thoose regs to suit your needs

[Nathanael Jones]

This seems to be a discussion about how the rules are enforced (Or not enforced) rather than the actual legality.

Of 7 window cleaners in my area that I know of, only me and 1 other guy are WFP, the rest use ladders. They will probably continue to do so, and I doubt if H&S will ever say a word to them.

If any of them fell though, I'd be confident that H&S would say they were breaking the law, and such a statement wuld most likely render their PL & personal injury insurance (if they have any) invalid,...
Insurance is a big thing for me. If the worst happens I want to be sure that they will pay up, and that means playing by the rules IMO.

[AuRavelling79]

This seems to be a discussion about how the rules are enforced (Or not enforced) rather than the actual legality.

Of 7 window cleaners in my area that I know of, only me and 1 other guy are WFP, the rest use ladders. They will probably continue to do so, and I doubt if H&S will ever say a word to them.

If any of them fell though, I'd be confident that H&S would say they were breaking the law, and such a statement wuld most likely render their PL & personal injury insurance (if they have any) invalid,...
Insurance is a big thing for me. If the worst happens I want to be sure that they will pay up, and that means playing by the rules IMO.

My thoughts exactly ...

[mci services]

nat and malc
if that is the case how come all the nationals have ladders on their vans? surely with the amount of manpower were talking they must have had an accident or two. as i said i am all for wfp and safety but the bottom line is they are not illegal. and as i also stated i know a w/c firm that is inspected every year by the H&S and pass every year. as far as i can see its down to how you interpet the rules and then do your risk assesment, and as long as your risk risk assesment justifies the use of ladders there nothing can be done to stop the use of ladders

[sgibsoncleaning]

legal up to 18ft .as long as u dont take longer than 30 mins on one job . h/s rules.            its safer with wfp . but LADDERS AR NOT BANNED

i have never seen this  in all the wahd posts

[EZclean]

Its a different matter if you send employees up a ladder

nutshell to WAHR


found this interesting, especially as the Short Duration often comes into it when using ladders

http://www.iosh.co.uk/index.cfm?go=discussion.view&forum=3&thread=35686

[Moderator David@stives]

9m is the reccommended maximum length

[williamx]

Just had a call from a company who want me to quote one of their care homes, She wants a quote for trad cleaning. I explained that we can only use wpf at heights & tried to explain the working at heights act - But she did not believe me! She wants proof!

Is working off a ladder legal & is there any links I can send her to explain working at heights?

Thanks.

Frank

She works for a care home so I assume that she has over 5 employees, if that the case then she should have a HR policy in place, part of this policy will cover Heath & Safety.

Take her a copy of the WAHD 2005 directive and point out the regulations concerning window cleaning at height.

Explain that working from ladders is not banned but using alternative methods must be used if possible at all times.

Explain to her, that its HER responsablity it ensure that YOU are complying with the WAHD, and if you don't and a accident does happen, then she could be taken to court and if found guilty, she will be fined with court costs or sent to jail or both.

If after you have explained this she still wants you to use ladders then its up you.

But be aware, if you do have an accident your insurance company will try any method in not paying out on the policy and they will use the WAHD as a good reason for not paying.

[williamx]

Watch Panorama on tv this monday 8.30pm.

They are doing a programme on H&S which includes working with ladders.

[EZclean]

9m is the reccommended maximum length

9minutes  or
9metres   

wouldn't see me up a 30ft ladder

[williamx]

Frank

One more point.

When it comes to assessing whether a ladder or a wfp is suitable for this clean, you are the EXPERT, not her, don't let her bully you into doing something that you know is wrong.

[Rob.Hall]

Check your insurance as mine only covers me for a hight of 15ft.

I only noticed this in the small print a couple of months ago.

[gerard mcmanus]

rob mine is the same and I asked when I took it out if it could be increased to a higher height and they said they wouldn't insure me any higher than that. It also doesn't include the property being worked on which is a bit of nonsense.

I had a guy today that got on my goat a bit, he came up and said...

"what is the wedge for?"
I said, "Its to level the ladder to reduce movement".
"Wouldn't you be better putting it the other way, to stop it slipping out",
I said "No, because its slopped the foot could slip of then, and its not to stop the ladder slipping, its to level it".
"I am just saying, I know what I am talking about, I worked with ladders all my life, but you young ones just want to take short-cuts"
I said "Its nothing to do with taking short cuts or young ones, a window cleaner that has used ladders all his life too, taught me that's way to do it".
He said "Do you mind if I ask you, how do you get away with that".

By this time he was annoying he.

"Get away with what", I said.
He replied "Using ladders".
"Why do you think I shouldn't".
"Health and safety"
I said "Health and safety doesn't say you cant use ladders".
he said "No, you cant use ladders for height access unless its on a scaffolding".
I replied "Well I am licence and insured to use a ladder, and my insurers say differently".
he said "I am just saying I know what I am talking about, I have seen people fall of big triple tier ladders".
I replied "This is a triple tier set".
He said "No, I mean real ladders, ones that would go above the building".

I laughed, now as well as telling a window cleaner what the laws are on using a ladder that contradicts anything I have read, heard or seen before, he was giving me his own definition of what a real ladder was, I had had enough and carried on my way. its true there is an 1di0t born every minute.

Window cleaners have used ladders for over 100 years, that wont change any time soon.

More to the post though, hydros post there is good advice with handling the customer.