[Frank pole]

Just had a call from a company who want me to quote one of their care homes, She wants a quote for trad cleaning. I explained that we can only use wpf at heights & tried to explain the working at heights act - But she did not believe me! She wants proof!

Is working off a ladder legal & is there any links I can send her to explain working at heights?

Thanks.

[Frank pole]

Thanks for reply!

[leapstallbuildings]

I thought it was only legal if there wasn't a reasonable alternative.
The catch is that the law isn't so specific about what the word "reasonable" means and how it can apply.
For instance, if someone was unable to obtain sufficient credit to go WFP then it could be argued that using ladders was legal for that person so long as they had the ladder secured in some way at top or bottom (e.g. ladder mitts, Rojak style ladder stopper).
So this care home owner really does want to pay a lot extra for trad cleaning then and to take the risk that by insisting on trad, the care home might become liable in the event of an operator getting hurt or killed?
Maybe draft a document that the care home will take responsibility in the event ogf a "Working at height" accident and get the owner to sign it?  Bet they won't.

So ladders aren't illegal in the sense of being totally banned but the circumstances in which they may be used and the method of usage are both more strictly controlled than they once were.  Much of it is down to interpretation though IMO.

[EZclean]

if you employ, your insurance may be void if your wfp only and only use ladders for access.
sounds like a right battlaxe anyway, job will never be good enough for Matron.
she should know better, maintenance men at most homes arent allowed to change light bulbs because they have to use ladders. (thats how it is where my misses works)

[Alex Gardiner]

Ladders are legal only if the risk is assessed to be minimal or no other alternative is available (not having a pole systems does not count in the HSE regulations).

The HSE are actually very specific when it comes to window cleaners. The tricky part is that assessing of the risk. The trouble is whenever you climb a ladder and go over a certain height (3m) there is real risk of serious injury. Because most window cleaners have got used to this risk they can tend to ignore it, but it is still there and you have to prove that you have put in place measures to contain this risk (tying the ladder, using an approved fixing device, having someone foot the ladders) or remove the risk by using am alternative method (WFP, MEWP, Scaffold).

If you go onto the HSE website and look up the working at height regulations you will find all their advice. Something that your potential client needs to think about is also the new corporate liability laws that would hold her responsible for any injury or death that occurred on a premises that she has responsibility for.

[Oakley Windows]

working from ladders IS legal

So driving, but rules and regulations ALSO have to be adhered to.

[bumper]

if ladders are banned why do they sell them ,why every other car and van have them, when i had got stoped for road check by police why did he not inform me that i was breaking the breaking the Law http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=380C_nVJotY

[Moderator David@stives]

Frank

Everything you need to know is here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/window.htm

[matthew_stanley]

Frank

Everything you need to know is here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/window.htm

Good link.

[leapstallbuildings]

Frank

Everything you need to know is here.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/window.htm

Good link.

Agreed.  I wasn't aware that HSE had specifically addressed W/Cing on their website.
Cheers Dave.

[Tosh]

It's a good link, but typically 'wishy washy' and open to interpretation.

For example, 'Can the windows be cleaned from the ground, eg. water-fed pole? Yes/No'.

Errrr, I haven't got a water-fed pole, therefore 'No'...!

[Sir Squeaky]

It's a good link, but typically 'wishy washy' and open to interpretation.

For example, 'Can the windows be cleaned from the ground, eg. water-fed pole? Yes/No'.

Errrr, I haven't got a water-fed pole, therefore 'No'...!

That's exactly my argument when I was using ladders, and you lot shot me down!

There's NOTHING to stop you using ladders.
I used to do it in front of coppers in town and even spoke to a H&S person about it.

[Tosh]

I used to do it in front of coppers in town.

That's not the brightest explanation of 'why ladders are legal' is it?

I do hope our police force are more interested in catching criminals than learning about window cleaning safety rules!

[cozy]

Yeah, our Police are busy beating G20 demonstrators with batons, that's more fun than watching you Sqeaky

[Tosh]

Oh and but; I recently took over the cleaning of a nice office premises purely because their previous window cleaner only used ladders.  They wanted someone with a reach and wash system.

Ian_Giles knows the previous window cleaner and was surprised that he lost the account; he'd done this particular office building for years; maybe 10 or more (?).

But he wouldn't go WFP, so they 'let him go', even though he was well liked by his (ex) customers.

[sparklebright]

An interesting point also is that if you work in an unsafe way and fall to your death your Life insurance could possibly wriggle out of paying. My brother was a manager for a company and had to inform his staff that this was the case.
Is cleaning windows off a ladder unsafe, I couldn't possibly comment as I don't do it.

I understood that the phraseology is that 'ladders are a means of access not a working platform.' That is why you are increasingly seeing guys doing work off of scaffolding. Use of ladders is to be avoided if possible.

[Alex Gardiner]

It's a good link, but typically 'wishy washy' and open to interpretation.

For example, 'Can the windows be cleaned from the ground, eg. water-fed pole? Yes/No'.

Errrr, I haven't got a water-fed pole, therefore 'No'...!

Not having a pole system is not seen by the HSE as a good reason not to use one. They would say buy one or get someone else to do the job.

[Tosh]

Alex, I believe you, but can you provide some sort of evidence to back your statement up?

[Moderator David@stives]

I think the hse website says it all, with that hse advice , i would have no trouble using ladders at all.

Its a different matter if you send employees up a ladder

[AuRavelling79]

When there is a fall and or damage that is when you get taken to hell in a hand basket.

I could word a letter to the matron of the original care home putting the fear of wotsit into her explaining that if anyone had a fall because she insisted upon ladders then she could go to prison or get fined heavily or lose her job or have insurance company representatives sucking on their teeth and going "ooh errrr best you play safe Mrs!".

I guarantee she would show it to a senior colleague and that ladders would not be used for window cleaning on that site again.

I've done it in the past and I will do it again - because I believe it.