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Poll

Who would be in favour?

Yes
No

gaz1984mcc

  • Posts: 194
Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2009, 06:41:57 pm »
honestly i'm not missing the point you just pointed out exactly why there should be no licence. Window cleaning is not some special trade as you say any one can start up for a fairly low price that's because anyone can do it. The only reason why there is so much business for window cleaners because people dont want to do it themselves they find it easier to pay someone to do it for them. But dont kid yourseves if customers genuinely couldn't afford to pay for a w/c they could quite easily clean there own.

Window cleaning is not for example like being a plumber where you need to be corgi registered to even mess with gas. because if a plumber get's something wrong they could potentially kill someone through negligence and incorrect training thats why they need to have a corgi. Window cleaners are not going to kill or harm anyone but themselves from the work they do.

you also mention an under quoted round even charging £5 for a house do 15 of them a day they will earn £75 a day take away tax they will be left just under £60 a day  they will earn over £15000 grand a year not to mention the first five grand in a year they earn in a year is tax excempt. My point is alot of factory jobs only earn just over 10k a year so they will be laughing all the way to the bank.

No licence needed

I think you are kind of missing my point there, in my opinion the window cleaning industry is more funerable to cowboys than other trades because of two things. One you can start up for a fairy low cost, and unlike other trades we repeat the work on a regular basis, so they dont have to advertise as much once they establish there under qouted round.

And yes someone on the dole working as a cashier is taking up a job, but thats more to do with the employer than them so being self-employeed does have something to do with it however the responsability is on them not to take jobs like that so I do agree with your point to some extent.

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2009, 06:50:30 pm »
I think we will have to agree to disagree then my friend, if they have no licence they may have a criminal record for bugulary or worse a pedofile and pearing in your daughter window but if you think because anyone can do it is a reason not to give the public that protection then your entitled to your opinion.

gaz1984mcc

  • Posts: 194
Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2009, 06:56:17 pm »
Criminals regardless of what they have done can be working any where (supermarkets, delivery drivers, even schools)  and we don't no about it so i dont think we can narrow that one down to just window cleaners customers can we.

I think we will have to agree to disagree then my friend, if they have no licence they may have a criminal record for bugulary or worse a pedofile and pearing in your daughter window but if you think because anyone can do it is a reason not to give the public that protection then your entitled to your opinion.

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2009, 07:09:44 pm »
no but supermarket workers and delivery drivers arent working in and around your home so again thats not a very good comparison. Trades put to the side would you have someone work in your home who has had a criminal background check done, or someone you dont know with no company name, id, unform etc and for all you know a criminal record as long as your arm.

gaz1984mcc

  • Posts: 194
Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2009, 07:16:43 pm »
So everytime someone does any work on your home or delivers something to your address you make sure they have had a crb check do you? I dont think so.

no but supermarket workers and delivery drivers arent working in and around your home so again thats not a very good comparison. Trades put to the side would you have someone work in your home who has had a criminal background check done, or someone you dont know with no company name, id, unform etc and for all you know a criminal record as long as your arm.

williamx

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2009, 07:18:49 pm »
At the moment there are thousands of people in prisons being trained up as plumbers, painters and decorators and electrians.

Where are they likely to use this new skill they have aquired, well some will get jobs with firms while some will go self employed, but all of them will be working on the inside of peoples homes and offices, window cleaners normally only work on the outside as a rule.

So who is the greatest risk?

Mark Sadler

  • Posts: 121
Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2009, 07:22:32 pm »
How many so far have voted yes, and don’t support there own trade association FWC!

You wouldn’t need licensing if 30’000 window cleaners joined the FWC that would be 30’000 marketers and a richer = more powerful trade association working on your behalf.

There would definitely be a noticeable difference in professional window cleaners and the other lot. Quoting & getting the job will be easier as the public perception of window cleaners will be different.   


Well said ewan im going to join the FWC now
Mark Sadler

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2009, 08:00:38 pm »
hydro if they were inside for pedophilia I couldn't care were they went, as long as they weren't working on my home, and we both know that not everyone who has a criminal background gets refused its only of the council deems them a danger to the public, its the same for taxi drivers, and its in my opinion in the best interest of the public.

And gaz I think we could go on all night mate so I am making this my last repsonse to you, this topic is not about other trades even though I think they may benifit from something similar, the tread is about wether we should licence window cleaners in England. I would however be interested to here your answer to my last post, if there was a window cleaner on your street previously convicted (possibly for pediphilla (a worst case sinario)) would do want him working on your house outside your daughters window, or would you want to do something to stop that from ever happening.

williamx

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2009, 08:13:58 pm »
You will find that sex offenders who are released from prison, go onto a register and as part of their release terms they are forbidden to work or be near where children are.

So this type of person would not be able to be a window cleaner.

A friend of mine is out on a life licence for killing a man over 20 years ago.

The person he killed was by accident but he would not be granted a licence if one was indrodused, yet since he has been out of prison he has worked hard, paid his taxes and kept himself to himself, why should he have his livilihood taken away from him.

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2009, 08:17:41 pm »
I dont think a licence should take that away from him he has served his time and deserves a new start, but what about the other hand where a window cleaner and his pals beats up your friend while he trys to start this new life, should they be allowed to continue working as a window cleaner.

williamx

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2009, 08:27:00 pm »
if that happened they should be arrested for assault, a licence is not going to stop them in the first place.

We already have laws which protect us, why do we need to replicate them by having a licence scheme.

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2009, 08:33:47 pm »
yes they should be arrested, once there time is served they shouldn't be concidered fit to continue working as a window cleaner as people convicted of pedophilla are not fit be around children. There is a clear danger they may offend again and a licence could prevent this. However only if people get behind it, in the industry and the public.

DASERVICES

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2009, 08:50:43 pm »
Here is a section which is top secret but all trades in the Civic Act are governed by the "Fit Person Test" where the Police can object to the license. Remember it is not window cleaners that are governed by this but Taxi drivers, pub landlords, wheelie bin cleaners, car valeting, street trader and now tatoo parlours have been introduced. There are a couple of other trades but cannot think to hand what they are.

This document informs what pub licensee holders are governed by a "Fit Person" which is near enough the same as window cleaners. It is all in legal jargon so please don't ask me to explain it, but I feel it is not clear enough.

“FIT AND PROPER PERSON” TEST - LICENSING (SCOTLAND) ACT 2005
The Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 (the “2005 Act”) will replace the Licensing
(Scotland) Act 1976 in its entirety. The 2005 Act and the new licences under it come
fully into force on 1 September 2009 at the end of a transition period that began in
February 2008. It replaces the 1976 Act’s system of separate licences for pubs,
restaurants &c with a single all-purpose premises licence and a personal licence.
An issue of concern that has been raised with the way the 2005 Act will work is the
restricted ability of the police to comment on applications for premises and personal
licences.
Under the 1976 Act, various “competent objectors”, including the chief constable,
may object to the grant, renewal or transfer of a licence. Objections must be relevant
to the grounds, as set out in section 17, on which the Board may refuse to grant a
licence. These grounds include that the applicant (or connected persons) are not a
“fit and proper person” to be the holder of a licence. Section 16A also permits the
chief constable to submit “observations”, again relevant to the grounds in section 17.
The 2005 Act takes a different approach. Section 22 allows any person to object to an
application for a premises licence, but subsection (2) limits the chief constable so
that he can only object on the ground that he has reason to believe that the applicant
47
is involved in serious organised crime and that refusal of the application is necessary
for the purpose of the crime prevention objective (in section 4(2)). The chief
constable also has a role, under section 21, of providing antisocial behaviour reports
and a notice relating to convictions for relevant or foreign offences.
We propose to amend the 2005 Act to enhance the police role. We do not propose to
reintroduce a “fit and proper person” test as such, but rather to work within the
existing framework of the 2005 Act to ensure that the police have appropriate powers
and suitable provisions will be included in the Criminal Justice and Licensing Bill.

gaz1984mcc

  • Posts: 194
Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2009, 08:55:39 pm »
yes we could go on all night and i think il leave it on this one your dead right i would not want a paedophile working in my home or anybody's home full stop so at least we agree on something but i think everyone would agree with this.

hydro if they were inside for pedophilia I couldn't care were they went, as long as they weren't working on my home, and we both know that not everyone who has a criminal background gets refused its only of the council deems them a danger to the public, its the same for taxi drivers, and its in my opinion in the best interest of the public.

And gaz I think we could go on all night mate so I am making this my last repsonse to you, this topic is not about other trades even though I think they may benifit from something similar, the tread is about wether we should licence window cleaners in England. I would however be interested to here your answer to my last post, if there was a window cleaner on your street previously convicted (possibly for pediphilla (a worst case sinario)) would do want him working on your house outside your daughters window, or would you want to do something to stop that from ever happening.

williamx

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2009, 08:58:47 pm »
so if you have got form for anti social behaviour you can be refused a licence ::)



williamx

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2009, 09:10:23 pm »
You make is sound like there are thousands of window cleaners are crooks, when was the last time a legal window cleaner was convicted for house breaking?

To join the criminal underground you need to be good at cleaning windows? I hope Ronnie Biggs is taking lessons before being released later this year.

John McVicar should have picked up a squeggie instead of writing books, the man has lost all his respect from his former associates ;D

Even Robin Hood could have egged the Sherrif of Nottinghams windows. ;D

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2009, 07:06:48 am »
if there is no licence to check nobody will have a clue hoe many there really is, they wont advertise it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1047262/Burglar-raided-holiday-cottage-gets-window-cleaner-job-Prince-Charles-country-home.html

Its about giving the public piece of mind and improving the general perseption that the public has of window cleaners.

sageorgeta

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2009, 07:48:23 am »
So what is the fuss over this guy....he done something wrong,done his time and now is getting on building a new life and a decent round by the looks of it.
The fact that he cleans big ears windows should have no relevance on what he has done in his past.....
This is where a license would stop a guy like him trading....because he has been bought to the spotlight by cleaning royalty the council,guaranteed,would make an example of him and either revoke or not issue a license to him.......
Even the hardest of men who made huge mistakes in the past have the right to do it properly.
Your argument for pedos is non-sensical.A window cleaning license would not be issued to one of these monsters as they are on a register and are (supposedly) continuously monitered both in their professional and social lives.There is no argument for a license based on that category criminal.
Licensing imo would be a local tax that is another burden on the window cleaner.It would in no way discourage benefit cheats to not go out window cleaning,if they feel they can cheat with benefits do you honestly believe they will think twice about a license scheme,do me a favour.
I have tried to find a survey of how many window cleaners have been prosecuted for crimes relating to the property they work on,but i cannot find one,so i guess it cannot be that many.
So would householders feel safer knowing that we have a license,well do they feel more comfortable knowing that we are members of the fed,or members of safecontractor or members of any other organisations that are meant to be in place to represent us?....well i reckon the average householder couldn't give a monky about any of these as long as you are doing a good job at what they see as the right price.If they dont like you they will get rid of you.
So as you can guess i vot a big NO THANKYOU.....keep it in scotland where apparently it makes a huge differance...i dont think.

Klean07

  • Posts: 3218
Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2009, 09:17:22 am »
I voted yes but having read all comments I'm thinking twice about which way I should have voted. A good way of highlighting the importence of legal window cleaners would be to get your local paper to run a story about legal wcs and illegal ones for eg having insurance etc. I'm sure this would go a long way to making the custie think more when employing a wc. It would also make some of the illegal ones think twice about what they're doing.
kkleanwindowcleaning.co.uk

williamx

Re: Licensing for England
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2009, 09:31:58 am »
if there is no licence to check nobody will have a clue hoe many there really is, they wont advertise it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1047262/Burglar-raided-holiday-cottage-gets-window-cleaner-job-Prince-Charles-country-home.html

Its about giving the public piece of mind and improving the general perseption that the public has of window cleaners.

All of my customers trust me, on many I have keys for their houses or to gain access while they are at work.

You seem to think that the majority of the public think that their window cleaners is going to rob them blind at the 1st opportunity.

You also seem to feel that if someone breaks the law, then they shouldn't be allowed to work again, or they can work but so long as its not near me.

This guy broke into a holiday home 5 YEARS ago, he went to prison because he didn't pay his fine for this offence, well how is he going to pay a fine if he cannot work.

He has paid his debt to his community and instead of spending the rest of his life on benefits which we pay for and even working while recieving them he has started his own business.

On the Princes job he even employed 2 people as well and in the future its possible that he will employ on a regular basis.

Everyone makes mistakes in their lives from time to time, they get caught and hopefuly they learn from their mistake, but if you are going to send them to prison and then condemn them to a life without the chance to improve their lifestyle, why should they every bother to be law abiding citzens again.