[williamx]

I voted yes but having read all comments I'm thinking twice about which way I should have voted. A good way of highlighting the importence of legal window cleaners would be to get your local paper to run a story about legal wcs and illegal ones for eg having insurance etc. I'm sure this would go a long way to making the custie think more when employing a wc. It would also make some of the illegal ones think twice about what they're doing.

It won't matter one dot, most customers just want their windows cleaned and at the cheapest price possible, if the cleaner is doing a good job and is on benefits so what they will think.

The majority of the public have no objections about buying smuggled cigarettes or booze, so employing someone who is on benefits is not going to faze them.

As for insurance, well its not illegal to not have it, it just senisble to have it.

I have £5 million of cover but it does not cover the work I am doing, so if I break their windows I will end up paying for it out of my own pocket, I could get cover for this but when the excess is £500 and the extra premium is 20% more it not worthwhile.

But if someone trips over my hose then they can be very rich.

[gerard mcmanus]

You seem to think that the majority of the public think that their window cleaners is going to rob them blind at the 1st opportunity.

You also seem to feel that if someone breaks the law, then they shouldn't be allowed to work again, or they can work but so long as its not near me.

I havent said that any where what I have said that, in some cases there is a need to protect the public and the police should make the shout.

And do think  that people should get second chances and be able to live an honest life when they leave prison, but I have seen figures close to 40 percent offend again after being released from prison

see http://www.popcenter.org/tools/repeat_victimization/2

so lets be realistic, not everyone who comes out of prison is reabilitated.

On a final point, we disagree and do think the points you have made are good points, as I have said before the system in scotland is not perfect but I think its better than doing nothing and hoping for the best.

[williamx]

Hi William,

I do agree with most of what you have posted, but not too sure about people not caring if their WC'er is also on benefits, I personally think this is the one thing that people do care about, the insurance I'm sure they couldn't care less about.

Glenn

Glenn

If you did a poll of the general public, the majority would agree with you about benefits cheats, but if you asked them if they would use someone who was on them the results would be different.

At the moment in some parts of the country there seem to be quite a lot of dole boys working as window cleaners.

They seem to have no problem in gaining new customers where the excisting cleaners are losing them wholesale, do you think that these customers know that their new cleaner is not compleatly legit, or do they think that they are lucky to get a cheaper cleaner.

A licence wll not stop this from happening, if the customer was also taken to court and fined, then it would be an improvement, but even if that was to happen a licence to trade as a window cleaner is still not the answer.

What the window cleaning trade needs, is a more pro-active approach to its image.

This can only be done by the trade associations and local trading standard offices.

  

[Klean07]

The top and tail of all this is to keep on top of your own business and not be concerned about whether Mr competition is legal or not. However if your really concerned and have proof that mr competition is claiming benefits etc. Then there are phone numbers available to you to phone and shop these cheats.

[gerard mcmanus]

Closest to me there would be a four hour drive so I wouldn't call it our association. I happily pay £30 or so pounds a year for a licence, but i think that associations that charge £100 to join is a bit of a money making scheme.

I would only invest in that if it directly effected my business in a positive way, and don’t think they grant that. Yes it looks more professional to have there logo on your flyers and website etc, but wouldn’t say that someone who isn't a member isn’t a professional window cleaner, or is just playing at it as you say.

I think if everyone got behind a licensing system or a trade association in Scotland or England it would make a difference to the industry. With a licence its at least an official body who is governing it. How many of you think a licence would just be another expense to a window cleaner but pay hundreds to associations each year.

Most have put some very good points about having a disclosure as part of a licence for window cleaners, but in truth there is a requirement for that in many trades and industries and weather its an association or a licence, there is a need for some action to be taken to prevent unscrupulous window cleaners.

Some have mentioned that it wouldn’t eliminate the problem, well I ask does the justice system eliminate crime, evil prevails when good men do nothing.

[williamx]

I happily pay £30 or so pounds a year for a licence, but i think that associations that charge £100 to join is a bit of a money making scheme.

In scotand they already charge £100 per year for a licence, and some councils want you to pay for 3 years in advance.

At the moment they get this money and the don't have to do anything for it, if they have to start to work for this money, I can guarntee that the price for a licence will double.

You said you would gladly pay £30 for a licence, but what about £100 or £200-£300, what is the level, you will say thats too much?

and when you reach that point and the councils kept on raising their fees, what will you do, because you will not be abe to make the licence scheme go away.

[gerard mcmanus]

Agreed there is a risk of a monopoly there but you are slightly mis led in your figures you are quoting. The last time I renewed mine I played £72 which was for 3 years so £24 a year. Unlike a trade association which advertises that you are a so called professional, a license advertises that you are a law abiding citizen that has been deemed fit to do the job by the police and local council, and not might have but HAS the proper insurance cover to protect the public.

As for monopolising it, a trade association could do that as well, in fact looking at there prices they already are, and what do they do exactly. So if you go down the road of trade associations you might still be a criminal, no insurance etc but you've signed up to pay a yearly bill to an association. That means very little to the public.

But like I just said, if everyone got behind licences or associations they could make a difference in my opinion, action is what is needed, improvement are needed yes, but not sitting doing nothing saying what would happen to all the people that are not deemed fit. The point is to get rid of the unscrupulous window cleaners, I would rather be concerned for there safety and the customers that use there service than what they will do after they get refused a licence.

[gerard mcmanus]

46p a week for a licence and it says a hell of allot more about the window cleaner, its also means all window cleaners and there employees, not just the business owner.

[williamx]

I would like to know where all these rogue window cleaners are? I have in the trade for almost 30 years and I am either going round with a blind fold on or they don't excist.

There have been dozens of tv programmes on rogue and crooked workers yet I cannot remember 1 where the star was a window cleaner.

If there are vast amounts of rogue window cleaners trawling our neighbourhoods, why are they not on the news all the time?

You make it sound that by having a licence you are protecting the general public, howis this feat achieved???

When you apply and are granted a licence, how is the public protected from window cleaners who break health and safety laws, if you fall on someone from a great height, how is the public procted by the licence you have, the pensioner who is walking down the street, does not see your hose trailing over the pavement,they trip and fall, breaking their hip if they are lucky, how are they protected by your licence???.

None of them are, because the licence is not meant for that, but if you want the licence to protect these people then all window cleaners must go on H&S courses, before they are granted a licence, and when that happens, then the licence is in the public interest.

And it also going to cost more than £24 per year to do that as well.

[gerard mcmanus]

£2 a week or £0.46p a week

These amounts of money are not usually discussed on CIU.   

Some on here won’t clean a house for £5.00 that takes less than half hour, me included.

Maybe it is a money issue, but at least you will have a choice with trade association over a licence.

But if you don’t have to join what will that do to stop unscrupulous window cleaners…….nothing! They just won’t join and will continue to operate by under cutting decent guys trying to make a living, while they claim benefits. My point and final point is good men have to start doing something to stop this, or the industry will be overrun with these sorts, what ever it is they do, and I think licences for England would be a step in the right direction.

Just reading Hydro there….

The license enforces insurance which protect the public from accidents like that, and agreed I have said improvements are needed and if a health and safety course is that improvement and the price is doubled to £48 I am still happy to pay it, and its still less than an association, and achieve much more than any association with the backing of the governments and schemes like SLWN. Secondly the only time a window cleaner claiming benefits is going to get on the news is if it is Prince Charles estate again, between terrorist attacks and wars there is more to write about in the papers. When people are working illegitimately they won’t advertise it to you. My town is fairly big, but it’s only every couple of weeks I see other window cleaner that I know. So if Joe bloggs is doing a couple of houses for bear money, it’s unlikely I will come across them.

[DaveG]

i voted yes and have to say i did because it would help get rid of the doleys

[williamx]

here is a link showing what some of the licence fee were in 2007 http://www.slwcn.org/area.htm

You will see that in Glasgow they have a fee of £111 while there are others councils also charging £100.

All of these figures are over 2 years old and all of these council do no extra work in making the licence scheme work.

They do not stop even 1 illegally working window cleaner.

Now do you really beleive that their fees will not rise if they have to employ more staff who have to go out and check every single window cleaner who is working.

You say that because you are licenced you are insured, but what about the cleaners who only take out insurance when their licences need renewing, which can be every 3 years.

You are lucky that you are only paying £24 but at what rate would you pay upto???

The window cleaning trade need to improve from the trade itself not from some goverment department who won't police it correctly.

We need window cleaners to be trained better, to be aware of health & safety especially there own health & safety, we need the public to be willing to pay the going rate for a good cleaning service, not for some cleaner who misses the corners and sills, a licence will not stop this, but better training and awareness of delivering a good service will.

[Tosh]

In Scotland, do plasterers, painter and decorators, pressure washer guys, roof cleaners, oven cleaners... etc require licenses?

No, I know they don't. 

So what makes window cleaners such a target that they've got to pay to have a license to work when other trades of similar ilk don't?

Is it 'cos window cleaners can't be trusted?  We're just 'burglars in disguise'?  The lowest of the low and we can't be trusted and need a license?  Crickey, even the dog license was binned!  Are we less trusted than dogs?

What's the reason for the license?

[DASERVICES]

Licensing was brought in as there was a criminal element trading as window cleaners way back in the Glasgow ice cream wars. Edinburgh Council I believe were the first to introduce it.

It is a Safety Community Intiative. The Police are normally the ones who request that a licence be implemented in a Council area. For instance the last Council area Clacks Council, Central Scotland Police requested that it should be introduced.

I for one was glad it came along as you could go into one street and find several window cleaners in it, prices were around £2.50 for 3 bed house now we are getting £8.00 so we have seen the benefits.

[gerard mcmanus]

I have already given responses to these points of hydro and tosh, just read it, and

They do not stop even 1 illegally working window cleaner.

thats not true, and you realy cant state that as fact its you opinion and I do agree and have said very early on that it needs to be policed better and gave a solution which I was told was being worked on...

any way I was just wonder, do you mind if we release this as a book now... give the proceeds to charity or something  

[sageorgeta]

I don’t think there are many unscrupulous window cleaners relatively, but there are many unprofessional window cleaners I would say more than there are professional set ups, and that’s the problem with window cleaning.

It’s not just being a member of the FWC it’s everything else as well, rather than just sit back and complain least you can do is support your own trade association and encourage more professionalism.

Turning point would be when the public can distinguishes between the two types of window cleaners, pay the correct price for a professional or take there chances with a cowboy, customers choice always will be.

I just hate it when people blurb on about professionalism.
Many window cleaners Ewan,who have been in the game a lot longer than you,choose to run their businesses in what you may quote as unprofessional.
I think it is a damn cheek of you or anybody else to put down those who do not wish to join a trade association,or those who do not decide to invest heavily in equipement.
At the end of the day we all clean windows,and if one decides to clean with a diy set-up or a top of the range (overpriced)system as long as the job is done properly then that makes them professional.
Sit back and take time to look at wc's who drive round in cars with ladders on,in your mind they are obviously not professional,but take a look at their work you may just change your mind.
Of course there are those wc's that dont clean properly,but i bet there are a lot of "so called professional" wc's who have expensive systems that dont do a proper job either...are they still professional?
 :

[Tosh]

i bet there are a lot of "so called professional" wc's who have expensive systems that dont do a proper job either...are they still professional?
 :

Top post; and I strongly agree with this bit in particular.  I do the insides of an 'OCS job' and you should see the mess they leave behind every month.  And it is a real mess.

[DASERVICES]

Guys can I just say the Councils we have worked with it is now working and the stats are old so probably need updating.

One Council area East Ayrshire there is now around 80% licensed. The biggest problem in that area are the Nationals who are refusing to be licensed. The SLWCN lodged a complaint and now the Enforcement Officer is looking to have them all licensed with a view anyone operating in any City Centre wears their license. City Centre Managers are working on this.

We have turned the corner but it will never be perfect but close to perfection.

[Tosh]

No!

Please define 'a professional window cleaner', Ewan.

[sageorgeta]

No sorry i dont understand.
Are you saying that unless you have a setup that is in your mind "professional" which i presume you mean a top of the range wfp system,a nicely sign written van,a certificate to say you are a member of the fed,another certificate showing your insurance details,a uniform with your company name on and presumably a briefcase to put your sandwiches in...then you are not a professional window cleaner.

Sorry ewan this does not make you a professional in my eyes,it just means that the money you have made through window cleaning you have spent on things that you want.
It comes down to choice wether a window cleaner wants to have all the "top of the range" equipment or merely wishes to use the basic necessary tools to earn a good living.
Choice Ewan,something that a license scheme certainly will not give.
I find your posts on these matters very patronising to the hard working window cleaners who dont wish to join your club of so called professionalism....