[DASERVICES]

Hi William

They cannot do that as it goes against the Rehabilitation Act. But I do know Councils have gone against that but the applicant probably did not know his rights. I have given advise to people who have been in this position as we all make mistakes in our life as long as they have not committed a serious crime like murder.

Did you know as you have brought up Taxi's that licensing of Taxis is optional it is not mandatory.

[DASERVICES]

Chris,

I haven't got the time for it but we do hold discussions with members of parliament so as you know they like to gossip in the hall ways so you who knows what may happen.

[jaykie]

how did scotland start the ball roklling for the license.

[Paul Coleman]

I think all window cleaners should be licensed in the uk aswell, may just stop some starting and giving us good honest ones a bad name.

Nope the cowboys will still be as busy as usual, the only ones who will be out of work will be the cleaners who where dishonest in their past life, they will have to give up their job and income and go and sign on, because the police will say they are un trustworthy.

People can and do change as they get older.
I have a reservation that insufficient importance could be given to this.
Many people, self included, have emerged from a self imposed nightmare to become honest, decent citizens.

[Edge Clean]

I think the only ones that wouldnt get a license will be the ones who have been done for theft, gbh etc, not likely if youve got criminal record for speeding etc.

There is one other reason that a license may not be granted, only 1 council in Scotland currently refuse licenses if you have council tax arrears, any idea if there are plans to roll this out through other council areas Doug?

[williamx]

Hi William

They cannot do that as it goes against the Rehabilitation Act. But I do know Councils have gone against that but the applicant probably did not know his rights.
Did you know as you have brought up Taxi's that licensing of Taxis is optional it is not mandatory.

Doug

Sergeant Derek Simpson, licensing officer, said: “Checking window cleaners is an important part of our business. These people are permitted access to private property, often unsupervised. It is essential that these individuals are trustworthy and are not going to abuse that privilege.

This Police Officer is saying that having a licence prevents a dodgy person from being a window cleaner, yet you say that under the Rehabilitation Act its also illiegal to refuse them a licence, both statements can't be right, or if you are right, what is the purpose of the licence anyway, because it can't stop the dodgy person from being a window cleaner.

[DASERVICES]

Very good debate here when the bill was imposed:-

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1982/mar/09/civic-government-scotland-bill-hl

[DASERVICES]

William,

I'm no law attorney  but from conversations with Police I brought this subject up. From the information I was given if the person had spent convictions and depending on the seriousness of the crime the Police could not request the committee to reject the applicant. The period I believe is 5 yrs.

However one Council that introduced the license had to grant those who could prove they were in the trade for some years. There was a legal issue that they could not reject them but do not know what it is.

The only people at present who object to licenses are the Police but anyone can object to it. They do not have the final say as there is two tiers which the applicant can put his case forward if his application has been rejected. One of which is to sit in front of the committee who have the final say and plead his case.

Yes there have been cases where someone who has committed an offense has been granted a license but this comes with conditions. The ones who you would not even have clean your windows are always refused a license.

Our issue is not to challenge this as we have no legal status but our prime objective are those that do window cleaning on the side without declaring their earnings. These people are keeping prices low which makes it very hard for a window cleaner trying to make a living. In some areas window cleaners are struggling to get £3.00 a house.

We see the license as a business tool and therefore would like to see everyone on the same scale this way we all should be able to make a decent living. This also applies to the big Nationals who are the biggest culprits who take work off the local window cleaner.

What we and licensed window cleaners want to see is prices rising and not being constantly undercut by the beer brigade. The license is one of the best business tools if run correctly and that is the SLWCN's aim.

Hope this makes sense

[foxy]

i'm with the shiner. the past is along way back. it's about time they brought in a licence (or a psychological test that shows how honest and trustworthy local and national politicians are; as well as other people we take on trust every day of the week). i've not always been the beat citizen but have tried to amke amends the past (best part of 10 years). sometimes the ones that have been bad are behave better than those who have always been 'good'.

[foxy]

that should have been 'best citizen' and i won't get into it 

[Paul Coleman]

I think the only ones that wouldnt get a license will be the ones who have been done for theft, gbh etc, not likely if youve got criminal record for speeding etc.

There is one other reason that a license may not be granted, only 1 council in Scotland currently refuse licenses if you have council tax arrears, any idea if there are plans to roll this out through other council areas Doug?

Prevented from window cleaning for being in council tax arrears?  Someone please tell me this is a windup.  If it's true, then it is blatant abuse IMO.  So the punishment for being in financial difficulties is to prevent someone earning a living?  If this is so, IMO that council should be severely punished.

[DASERVICES]

Nope not a wind up as I challenged it , there is a law within the Civic Act that gives the right. However they cannot approach the Council you live in as it goes against the freedom of information act. They can request if they can contact your council.

I'm giving away too much information here  . The Councils would be having puppies with all the information given to me but if you know your rights you can get anything

Here is a copy of a report where this Council voted to do this:-

6 Council Tax Arrears
It has been agreed in the past that a consistent and deliberate failure to pay a
public tax may be relevant in considering the fitness of an applicant for a
licence. This is on the basis that such an attitude may imply an irresponsibility
which is not consistent with the obligation of a licensee to observe conditions
attached to a licence. Accordingly, Financial Services are notified of
applications for licences to allow them to draw appropriate cases to the
attention of the Committee as they see fit. Where there has been persistent
arrears of Council Tax or Business Rates which appears to go beyond an
inability to pay then the Committee will address that issue with such
applicants in the process of determining whether they are fit and proper
persons. This policy will not apply to general debts owed to the Council.
These would normally not be regarded as relevant to the fitness of an
applicant.

[foxy]

if you read the guardian there has been a series all this week about massive uk corporations avoiding their corporation tax liabilities by creating legal entities offshore. the jackboot of the state is good when it squashes the little man; but not so brave against the big boys.

[Dave71]

when applying for my license i had to proof that i had paid all my council tax

[mikethechamois]

i have always supported the idea of licencing wcs in the uk to ensure that only genuine wcs are able to clean windows

but having read this thread im not so sure

its seems the council are using it as a means to ensure that their tax is paid and the police are using it harrass people known to them

the licence should be issued on certain conditions

such as

pl insurance

registered for tax and ni

aware and practising h&s on all aspects of their business inc public safety

wether they are in arrears with their council tax or were imprisoned some time in the past shouldnt even be a consideration

the police dont want the job of checking licences as their role is crime detection and prevention, so the council want to employ civilians to check licences

wheres the funding going to come from to pay for their time............from the licence payer of course

people will still use unlicenced wcs as they will be cheaper

so the rates will still stay low but the licenced wc will have yet another cost out of their profit

to ensure that this system works the unlicenced wc and the householder who employs them need to be fined and the fines used to fund the system

this will concentrate the mind of the householder to check the licence of every wc that approaches them

the scottish windowcleaning federation needs to stand up to these councils and put them on the correct path

this licensing system should be benifiting the genuine wc business and protecting the householder from rogue traders

the police and councils interest should come second, presently they are being put first and foremost

i shall be opposing licensing in the uk

[Ian Lancaster]

I believe that all rules and regulations are created to satisfy the necessity for regulatory bodies to prove they are doing their jobs.

The rules themselves come a very poor second.

Take the obvious example of the Working at Height fiasco.  The Health and Safety Executive was required to reduce the number of deaths/serious accidents caused by falls in the workplace, so they dreamed up a whole plethora of rules which they claimed would address the situation.

They particularly targetted the window cleaning industry.

What percentage of window cleaners adhere to the rules?  More importantly how many even know the rules exist?

How many householders do you suppose are aware that they are deemed to be the window cleaner's employer for the purposes of the rules?

WHAT IS THE POINT OF RULES THAT NOBODY KNOWS EXIST?

The point is that the regulatory body can show they have addressed the problem without having to show their remedy is relevant or effective.

IN THE EVENT OF THE INTRODUCTION OF COMPULSORY LICENSING THE SAME SITUATION WILL PREVAIL.

Councils will gleefully grab licence fees from every 'visible' window cleaner, the very people who don't need licensing because by virtue of the fact that they are so 'visible' (i.e. they register with HMR&C, have insurance, run legitimate businesses) they need to be self regulating.  These same councils will ignore the vast 'underculture' of unregistered, uninsured and untraceable 'window cleaners' amongst whose ranks the overwhelming majority of those who need to be regulated can be found.

The excuse will be 'understaffed/underfunded'.  The result will be the same.

These rules can only ever be thinly disguised revenue sources unless the recipients of the services (our customers - the general public) are made properly aware of the existence of and necessity for the rules AND THAT TO EMPLOY ILLEGALLY OPERATING WINDOW CLEANERS BECOMES AN OFFENCE ON THE PART OF THE CUSTOMER.

Only if the above circumstances were implemented, and an effective public information campaign undertaken would I consider licensing anything other than a cynical attempt by the regulatory bodies to deceive their masters (the government) into believing their remit had been properly executed and an excuse for the issuing authority (the councils) to extort yet more unjustifyable tax revenue.

[Paul Coleman]

6 Council Tax Arrears
It has been agreed in the past that a consistent and deliberate failure to pay a
public tax may be relevant in considering the fitness of an applicant for a
licence. This is on the basis that such an attitude may imply an irresponsibility
which is not consistent with the obligation of a licensee to observe conditions
attached to a licence. Accordingly, Financial Services are notified of
applications for licences to allow them to draw appropriate cases to the
attention of the Committee as they see fit. Where there has been persistent
arrears of Council Tax or Business Rates which appears to go beyond an
inability to pay then the Committee will address that issue with such
applicants in the process of determining whether they are fit and proper
persons. This policy will not apply to general debts owed to the Council.
These would normally not be regarded as relevant to the fitness of an
applicant.

I've never really been in favour of licensing but have previously regarded myself as perhaps being persuadable if there were certain safeguards concerning the need for paying for multiple licences if living near county borders and safeguards against people having their licences removed for being involved in minor legal problems.
However, that one paragraph above has entrenched me in opposition to any licensing scheme.  I don't know if anyone else trusts the councils to be fair minded in deciding whether someone is a "can't pay" or a "won't pay" but I don't trust those power crazed gauleiters as far as I can spit.

[Paul Coleman]

when applying for my license i had to proof that i had paid all my council tax

Disgraceful IMO.

[mikethechamois]

thats a point i hadnt even considered,shiner, my round is a small round but its based in 3 counties

[Gordon Saunders]

I was originally against licensces for w/cer and i have to say after reading above posts with interest i have to say i still am. Very few other trades are so why window cleaning?