[Ken Wainwright]

Hi Goldfinch

I've noticed in recent weeks your contributions to this forum and you come over as a level headed, wise and valued contributor to CIU.

Your website says you trade in the West Midland and London areas. I too am from the Birmingham area, so thought I'd find out where you're based, so I looked at the footer on your posts and started there.

As far as I'm aware, you've never divulged your name, but I stand to be corrected.

Your information on your footer suggests that you are an NCCA Member. I can't see your entry on the NCCA's members list. If you are not an NCCA member, my view is that you are trying to decieve us and the public into thinking you are, all for the sake of a couple of hundred pounds a year.

A quick search of the contacts page of your website and there's no mention of addresses, either email or postal, nor telephone numbers except on other pages where your non-geographic 0845 number is shown.

If I have missed something, then I apologise, but I would be grateful if you could clarify who you are and your various memberships staus.

Safe and happy cleaning
Ken

[Mike Halliday]

Ken, looking at his website I think he's using the 'Trained by' trick

 it list  the NCCA, LTT, IICRC . it doesn't actually say he a member and I think if he was he would be using the Logo.

but he hasn't been on line for a few days so hasn't seen your question.

[Jim Gibbard]

Like Lloyd Grossman used to say  "  The Clues Are There " !!

Google really is a wonderful tool.

Jim G

[Ken Wainwright]

Mike

I'm aware of the "trained by" trick, hence the very deliberate wording of my original post. My point is, Goldfinch is not only trying to decieve the public, but also trying to decieve his colleagues here on Cleanitup.

If procedures are still the same, when Goldfinch attended the NCCA Training course, he will have signed a document to say that he would not use the NCCA/National Carpet Cleaners Association names or logos without being a paid up member. Goldfinch PCS are certainly an IICRC Certified Firm, so I would presume that this means that ALL technicians working from BOTH offices have FULL IICRC training and certification for ALL relevant services offered, and both offices are registered with IICRC UK.

As for a Google search Jim, it should not be a requirement of CIU members to check up on colleagues for the most basic of information. IMO, it should be a matter of courtesy between professionals to honestly divulge who they are and where they're from.

From reading some of Goldfinch's posts, the picture in my mind is of someone not too experienced in our industry or running a business, but I could be wrong. He comes over as being articulate and intelligent and my suspicion is that he may be a little naive in the ways of our industry forums and perhaps the way he uses industry "qualifications" too.

A little more openness would be appreciated.

Safe and happy cleaning
Ken

[Goldfinch PCS]

Hello Ken,

First thanks for the feedback.

I trained with Alltec, LTT and NCCA but I am only a member of the IICRC. I never used the NCCA logo and I have no intentions of using it illegally so it's not on the site. NOTHING against the NCCA, just aint got round to that bit yet I will join shortly, I do not display the LTT log either I haven't joined them as yet but that will be even sooner than the NCCA because I will be selling their products among other things online.

I reference these links not because of membership status but simply so that anyone who might be interested to know about my level of academic skills/knowledge they have a reference point to where I was trained and the type of organisations they are and what they provide. In a sense it works for me and the organisations, as one member points out the google issue and also I am advertising the organisations which I don't see on a lot of other members' sites, they have a logo (if they are members) but no link and so no one can go directly to, lets say the NCCA direct from that site, on my site you can.

I haven't spoken to you directly before but I am always picking the brains of Keith - Chemspec Direct, he supplies my chemicals and bits and bob. When he was getting me into DFC105 he mentioned you and I read the piece you wrote. I also heard Paul Pearce mentioning your name as well while attending several of his courses because I am always asking questions.

Goldfinch PCS is part of Dove Carpet Cleaning based in East London (Walthamstow), Dove started over 20yrs ago by my Uncle who is Prochem trained, I still has his very first machine and it still works (only use it for upholstery work). I worked with him in London over the years, never on a full-time basis, mainly when I was on holiday from college or Uni. Anyway Long story.

So when I decided last year to get in fully (pushed by my uncle, he wants to retire), I started Goldfinch as a separate brand, I wanted to target a different set of domestic customers and I wanted to go commercial as well. My uncle hates commercial, too much headache he said but he always said if I was prepared to deal with the headache then he would support me so I tender for cleaning contracts now, the whole thing not just periodic carpet cleaning but daily cleaning, supplies, management etc., more like facility management. My domestic customers pay for my service not for a carpet cleaner. I don't have jobs everyday all day but when I work it's worth my day.

Lets say I know a CC from brum that travelled to London to clean a 5 bedroom house for £250 and he thought he did great, well fare play to the guy he is happy. With me on the other hand that customer stands no chance at that price, so you can gauge the end of the market I aim for. Like yourself Ken, Carl -Dove, Paul Pearce, Pavlo, Keith Nicholson - Chemspec Direct, Peter - Cleanright, Mr LTT and all the other Professionals that I have met over the years, you guys are in a sense my roll models, I listen and I take advice, at this point I would like to say THANKS GUYS FOR YOUR HELP AND ADVICE I have tried a lot of it and it works, I am not showered with customers in Brum and I don't expect to because I am still building grounds but the customers I am getting are the ones I want to work for as a professional.

Regarding my address the site is still getting built I am doing it myself and it isn't near completion yet, when completed my address will be there. My address is on other sites plus i just acquired some commercial space and that will be the address I use so the current address will change soon. I live in Smethwick - Barewood/Capehill Side, - Mansion Crescent, Smethwick, B67 6QW - No Mail spamming please. Anyone from the forum that wants to contact me - 07908 231 341

Will I be going back to London?
Hell! yes. Just getting things setup here.


Richard Stephens
Goldfinch PCS

[Goldfinch PCS]

Scenario..

If someone approaches you for a job and says to you, they have 6 GSCE, 3 A-Levels and a Certificate in Higher Education, you then say to them really! Where did you do all this?

Their answer - I am not allowed to say.

Can I see your certificate?

Their answer - Well not really.

What would your thoughts be?

This issue did arise when we were training in Leicester, several students voiced there opinions. What I found a bit disturbing was the number of people on the course(over half the class) had no interest whatsoever in learning how to clean carpets properly or following proper procedures. They wanted the certificate so they could become members or for insurance or credibility only the newbies wanted experience/knowledge. A lot of these guys were CC with years of working experience and no formal or outdated qualifications.

So I went  away and did an online research, and found that a lot of companies who were members were clearly not acting in a professional manor. Now I know we are going to end up and old topics, such as, pricing, should we quote over the phone, should we bother to vac or pre-spray etc. What is the point in going through the training and if you dont's see the point in following the procedures? What is the aim of the NCCA, training and educating or recruiting members? Where is the balance? I also feel more can be done and should be done by the NCCA for their members - I have a list, but one key thing I feel is that members should uphold a standard and defend there living instead of falling foul to a cut throat market.

This topic came up in this forum before, people wanting to know where to go for training and where is best NCCA PROCHEM IICRC etc. What the majority on the forum said is the custie never heard of the NCCA PROCHEM OR IICRC so why bother joining or training with them? One person said you are better off going out with an experienced CC and learning on the job. Now, this is an area all three certification bodies MUST pay serious attention to.

I respect these organisations, I will join them, but I have not in anyway imply been a member of any apart from the IICRC.

Back to the top, if I approach any of you for a job and tell you what qualifications I have but can't show you a certificate or say where I study would you give me a job? If you never heard of my training organisation, school or college then here is the link, check them out. That's the reason there are links on my website. Check out what I have done before you book me, check out my chemical manufacturers see there credentials, now are you more like to believe the DFC is truly green?.

If I am asked are you a member of the NCCA I will say no I haven't taken that option as yet. The NCCA should say to become a member you have to train with us and make the training fee inclusive of membership fee so everyone knows where they stand. There is no point in giving someone a certificate that they can't make reference to apart from gaining insurance to become a member of.

LETS MAKE IT CLEAR

This is my opinion as expressed by me, this is not an attack on the NCCA or any other Professional body(ies) mentioned or implied.

Simply just airing my views.

[Ken Wainwright]

Hi Richard

Thanks for your reply and honesty, and also for accepting my criticism in the way it was intended ie constructively.

It's great to see how your business model is laid out and developing and I wish you every success. Being near(ish) neighbours, if you need any help, just give me a call.

I think you've probably provided too much information in your post, so for security reasons it may be wise to limit it to a general geographical location such as a general Smethwick (or is it Smerrick )

Depending on when you took your NCCA training, it's validity for membership application may have expired. However, being an IICRC registrant, if you have the CCT and UFT certification, as long as you are currently registered, that will allow you to qualify for NCCA Membership. For myself, I am a former NCCA Director, but am still active and I'm the Regional Officer for the West Midlands, so I can deal with most local members queries.

As an aside, I used to go to George Dixon's on City Road when it was a proper Grammar School. Strangely, so did Uncle Keith, but he's a LOT older than me  Also, I've done quite a bit of work on the Bellway Homes site off City Road, well, I did when they were busy and selling houses. Now it looks more like a ghost town.

I'll be at the NEC in March probably every day, so Keith will be spending some time with Chemspec Europe, I may be doing a little bit of cover for breaks etc on the NCCA stand, so please make yourself known.

Safe and happy cleaning
Ken

[Ken Wainwright]

Hi again Richard

I, and most others here, totally agree with much of what you have just said above. Believe me, many boardroom hours have been spent on this very topic.

If anyone here was to seriously research  and cost a plan to put your thoughts, and those similar thoughts of others,  into practice, you would begin to see the immense scale and complications of implementing  such a project. This topic is well discussed here and elsewhere too, and the closest anyone has come to a workable format is a proposal put forward a few years ago my my valued colleague and dear friend Derek Bolton. As with many things in life though, it is the cost that could be the final stumbling block. Because of various factors, policing would impose a prohibitive cost on the individual members, so honesty and goodwill would probably still be a factor in the scheme. But we keep on trying.

Safe and happy cleaning
Ken

[Jim Gibbard]

Richard,

Well expressed.  Requests were made of you, and you answered fully, in an honest way.

You can't say fairer than that.

I wish you success in your endeavours in the industry.

Jim G

[Ian Gourlay]

Richard I like your free room offer 13 sq feet if I was in your area i would get you to come and clean my toliet

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

Provided you are honest then I cannot see a problem.

If you were trained by the NCCA and that is all you say , then you have done nothing wrong, you could even specify the year if you want to be crystal clear.

Cheers

Doug

[craigp]

Cant see you on IICRC certified firms register though, only certified firms are meant to use their logo.

http://www.iicrc.co.uk/pages/reg-cleaners.htm

[John Gregory]

I Have just put a search into google in my local area . came across 3 company's using the NCCA logo . on there website's . then checked on the NCCA website not 1 of them listed .   Am I paying £250 a year for nothing

John

[clinton]

John

I see a few cleaners that have hed the ncca sign on there van maybe there membership has elapsed

[Bob Robertson]

Ken

I for one was led to believe that you could not use the terms  "trained by the NCCA " or " trained to NCCA standards"  if you weren't a member.

Bob

[Joe H]

I Have just put a search into google in my local area . came across 3 company's using the NCCA logo . on there website's . then checked on the NCCA website not 1 of them listed .   Am I paying £250 a year for nothing
John

Email the NCCA - they will take it up, let them check things out.

[robert meldrum]

Bob

I'm not quoting the law, but I reckon you could claim to be trained TO any "standard" in the world, as there is no legislation to prevent this. That's why regulation might be a good thing for the industry, as, under regulation, it becomes a requirement to supply evidence to the monitoring body.

To claim you were trained BY an organisation when you were not, or even when you had failed to maintain your registration, is most definitely illegal.

That's why I've never bothered to display any affiliations over the years, or make any claims, although I did the IICRC training with Paul Pearce last century and have attended many other training days and  courses.

[elliott cleaning]

Cant see you on IICRC certified firms register though, only certified firms are meant to use their logo.

http://www.iicrc.co.uk/pages/reg-cleaners.htm

Goldfinch shows up quite clearly as a registered member when I went onto that link

[Goldfinch PCS]

Hey Ian

Nice one, I  would clean your toilet if it was the right size, (that's the whole idea - the box room), but if you have a toilet that big then CC does work - you live in a mansion.

Anyway my customer doesn't loose the customer gets a discount, because if they have no room that size I deduct that size from the size of their smallest room. It is a honest offer in all it's intentions.

[Goldfinch PCS]

Craigp

Check the IICRC site, the address is 10b Cleveland Park Avenue, E17. I could only show one address so I kept it in London.