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keith b

  • Posts: 375
employee contracts/disputes etc
« on: January 23, 2009, 02:49:01 pm »
Hi,

Has any employee had any disputes with cleaning companies involving there personal terms of employment?,........and has any employee had to deal with ACAS or the EMPLOYMENT TRIBUNIALS? >:(



I was contacted by my local `Job centre plus` on the 30th october 2008 about applying for a job as a "general duties assistant".

The `client copy` (my job centre copy) of the details of the job are as follows: -

Hours; 20-40 hours per week monday to friday between 8am and 6pm
Duration; Permanant.
District; Romford, Essex.
Wage; bla bla bla

I attended an interview where I clearly stated what hours, days, times and locations (i.e monday to thursday 6am to 2pm, 32 hours per week) I could work given the costs of parking/transport fees etc, and I explained my other personal/private commitments to not working other days of the week (friday, saturday, sunday).

I was offered the job via a letter through the post to start on the 1.12.2008, I then attended a meet-up with many others on that day to sign a contract and to sort out paperwork etc.

They gave us a general contract to sign based upon 40 hours per week,....I ask there admin staff to amend this to my prefered hours/days etc as verbally explained at my interview, which they wrote in pen & ink on the general contract the hours 32 and the days I was willing to work, they then photocopied it (I don`t have personal copy, and I can`t remember signing it).

The boss now wants us to work outside our agreed area, and to work fridays.

Question:- Do I have any legal reddress given I have worked for them for only 7 weeks or so?

Can I sue the company for breach of contract? or something else? or do I have a claim against the job centre because of its in-accurate job description?

Any advice on a course of action would be most appreciated!


P.S;- many other new employees are also having differences with this company, plus there existing (TUPE) staff are being hounded!

gordonswindows

  • Posts: 563
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2009, 04:27:23 pm »
Hard to see legal address after only seven weeks

the mistake is as always with this firm they hire (no disrespect) anyone rather than the right one

what good does it do anyone to hire someone for hours they dont want to work
Don't Give Up
@askforthemoney

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2009, 07:39:23 pm »
In this present financial climate it is very very important to deal with employment law in the proper way.

Lots of people within this industry use the internet and forums just like this in order to obtain paperwork relating to Health & Safety and Employment Law, doing things this way, obviously keeps the costs of these "businesses" down, so that they are able to quote some silly prices in order to get work.

Regarding your particular question Keith,

Firstly, by your own admission the hours for the job are Monday to Friday between 8am and 6pm.

You then state that at interview time you informed them of your wish to work only Monday to Thursday from 6am to 2pm.

The employer needs workers between these hours, you cannot really expect them to change the hours to suit your personel needs, this might be possible in areas of high employment, or in a economy, when labour is in short supply.

If these hours were not suitable, perhaps you should have informed the jobcentre, before interview?

The second point, I doubt very much if the firms admin staff would have the authority to amend anyones contract of employment, as again there are legal requirements to be met before amending anyones contract of employment, if they did as you say amend them on the day, it is doubtful if the correct processes have been followed.

Any contract of employment must be signed by both parties, and each must have their own copies, by law the employer has to issue a contract of employment within 13 weeks, however it is considered best paractice to issue new starter documentation before the beginning of the first shift worked.

The third point, any contract of employment, should contain clauses that allow the employer to alter certain things, such as locations, times of shifts, hours worked etc, etc. This really is not done to "get one over on staff" or show them "who is boss", but to protect both the employer and the employee's in case the work situation demands, as contracts come and go, staff need to remain flexiable in their attitude, as does the business owner.

Regarding the staff that have been transfered under TUPE, they do have legal rights, and acas would be the first point of call, yourself, and other members of staff that feel that they have been mistreated, should also look into this course of action.

The last point I would like to raise, is to respond to your final query " Can I Sue?"
Without being in full possession of all the facts, I cannot say, however for those of you who have trawlled the internet and forums such as this one in order to obtain the legally required paperwork, as the economy worsens, you may well find that your employee's gain a sudden insight into their employment rights, that could very well end up costing you very dear!

Gordonswindows, regardless of how short the length of employment, each employee has rights under the law, doing, changing, saying or not following the correct procedures can land the employer with a hefty bill, through fines or legal costs.

Hope this helps!

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

Chris B

  • Posts: 168
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 07:24:49 am »
for peace of mind is worth looking at membership of the FSB.

cml

  • Posts: 181
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 06:50:44 pm »
Hi

Very good advice has been posted by Rob.  In support, it is very hard to give advice without full facts.

It would appear from the advertisement at the job centre is what lead you to believe you could choose your hours between 20-40 hrs pw.  However at the interview it is down to you to ask the right questions about the job on offer and how many hours required.  These  job centres get many jobs per day or week and errors can occur.  Sometimes the employer may not know of  errors until the ad has been posted before any amendments can be made.

The fact that you stated your hours and availability does not mean that the employer has accepted your offer. In agreement by their offer what they wanted is someone 40hours per week and has offered this to you.  At this point you could have refused the job.  It has only been 7 weeks and you cannot remember if you signed a copy of your contract nor do you indicate whether you were given a copy. So it is possible that you may have signed for 40 hours.  Nonetheless, you only have signed your contract on 1st December when you met with others.  So what hours were you working before the request to work on Fridays?  Were you working your 32 hours?  What areas did you agree if any?  Customary practice can also be implied into your contract if you were working your 32 hours but this may be tight considering your duration so far.

You may find you need to obtain a copy  of your employment contract from your company to find out what you actually agreed to.  They may have clauses to say that they can transfer you to areas where works are or get you to do any additional hours with reasonble notice.  Such termss you may find are standard which means you may have no grounds for redress.  Even so, you have only been employed for 7 weeks and are not dismissed.  Your employers to me sound as is they are acting reasonably in consulting you about any possible changes to your employment contract or asking you with due notice to work to a contract you may have signed.

If you  want to continue in the job just ask for a copy of your contract or arrange a meeting for someone to explain the terms for you. This may be best so that both parties are clear on what is expected of them. 

Good luck





BDCS

  • Posts: 4777
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 07:34:13 pm »
If you were that employer would you take someone on who wanted to pick and choose the hours worked on the days they see fit ? I think not. Business needs dictate those hours and may be changed when the employer needs to - again business needs. You've been there 7 weeks - then you could be dismissed without any real grief. I doubt even if a union would take your side with all the people getting laid off your lucky to have got employment - if I were you I'd keep my head down and do as your asked ! ???

keith b

  • Posts: 375
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2009, 05:01:00 pm »

Thank you guys for the replies!

Ok firstly, If I attend an interview in which notes were taken by the human resources personel (interviewer) as to what I was prepared and not prepared to do etc,! then why offer me the job in the first place when I have been straight with them from the beginning?

How can a company advertise a job in a job centre that is specific in its location and yet is vague on its times (see below)?,...is this not misleading? does this not contrivene some kind of trade description or advertising laws?

Also at the interview I was told that THERE prefered hours of work were firstly 6.00am to 2.00pm (which I agreed and prefered myself) and then as a second choice from 8.00am till 4.00pm,...........so its clear that they are misleading considering the times advertised at the job centre as between 8.00am to 6.00pm.

Also if the job advertised is monday to friday,.......does this mean specifically those days and the days in-between? or days to be discussed and choosen/negotiated?.........to me its not clear given they offer varied hours as well!

Also the company pays its staff monthly (which they did do two weeks early, i.e christmas), but they have not issued any wage slips or payment details since the start of my work as well to others who have been there years (some did not get paid at all).......again they are not honouring there contract, which has caused problems with other issues regarding council tax/rent arrears/proof of earnings etc.

At the moment we meet up at one location, and are picked up by van to go to difference locations (miles away) while we wait for medicals and passes to be issues (cleaning police property), so it does not matter where we go given our travel costs are zero whilst we are being trained etc, but there are many cases of people having to travel across london who have got there passes without any financial help given the low wage structure and difficulty with trains not running (too early start,..can`t get there in time or parking restrictions etc),.........so its important the cleaners are based locally for all concerned.

BDCS ; In answer to your question about choosing hours/days etc ;- yes I would take someone on who has specific requests providing this was made clear from the beginning and not ambiguous in its verbal understanding or misleading advertising,.......flexibilty was offered by myself on the days I choose in respect of working outside of the advertised hours given the situation of my voluntary & charity work on other days,.........to me a trustworthy reliable employee who does there job well, is more important than being at an employees whim when he demands from a employee who`s is not happy in there work or there cleaning standards are not good which reflects this!,.............in other words you have a better chance of keeping good staff if you are straight with them from the start!

I am still trying to contact the relevent personel, so hopefully this will be resolved one way or another,........although I feel robert parry may well be right in he`s description of basic interim contracts being offered which are not perhaps precise in there discription or interpretation.

It has also been mentioned that fares/milege to travel from one work location to another work location (not from home to work) are not going to meet because of possible get-out clause on what contitiutes working time for a company.

thanks everyone for your input,.........much appreciated, even though some of it is perhaps not what I wanted to hear!

BDCS

  • Posts: 4777
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2009, 11:14:54 pm »
 :'( :'( :'(

Collybolly

  • Posts: 59
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2009, 01:31:35 pm »
  your lucky to have got employment - if I were you I'd keep my head down and do as your asked ! ???
  ;D

I'm in agreement with BDCS, I'd look for something else if you're not happy, why stick around.

You're already talking of litigation, suing people for breach of contract, contravening trade descriptions and advertising etc.   After 7 weeks? Going down that road is unlikely to foster good Employer-Employee relations !

Only guessing here (with my tongue in my cheek)  but I don't think you'll ever be "Employee of the Month" if you've only been there 7 weeks and are creating already. You'll probably be seen as a "trouble maker", " your card will be marked",  "your days will be numbered" and I wouldn't be expecting a glowing reference.

Then if you went for another job/ interview elsewhere, what are you going to tell them? That you took your previous employer to court?.  I wouldn't take you on, I wouldn't want the potential for hassle in the future.

keith b

  • Posts: 375
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2009, 06:41:59 pm »

Collybolly,

With respect, nobody asked you wether you would employ me or not,.............what has that got to do with me and my fellow collegues situation given the points/questions in mention in this post?  ???,..........in fact have you read and understood the posts and the relevent responses by the others on this forum?.....me thinks you have not!

Do you really think I would want to work for you anyway? ::)
Do you really think my life evolves around wanting to be employee of the month  ;D thats really sad!.....dont tell me you run this sort of thing in your business!

My supervisor and manager love the standard of my work and have no complaints about me as person,........ they too are also up in arms over this guys tactics, (who has just joined the company), and thats without senior members of the police who also are not happy that work is not being covered at different sites .due to his incompetance in spoiling a system that has worked in the past.

You say I am creating, and yet all I have done with my employers is to ask for clarification alongside documentation in curtious respectful way, before asking questions on this forum. ::)

Your understading and interepretation of the word `CREATING` is very strange!

References:- no problem at all, wether previous employers or not,.....and thats without some high profile personal reference from my voluntary & charitable work,...in other words you have to be of the highest integrity with no criminal record to work for the police (in fact you you have to go through 3 different government security checks, and thats without signing the official secrets act just to be considered), so if my current employer (contracted to the police) doesn`t want to give me an glowing reference.............Im not bothered because I just tell next potential employer the truth anyway wether they like it or not, and irrespective of loosing a job!

Me trouble maker ::) do you really think the police would give me a pass in the first place?..oh please!

And yes I will probably seek employment elsewhere when the credit crunch eases,......in fact I may go back to self-employment when the time is right!


Collybolly

  • Posts: 59
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2009, 08:30:45 pm »
You have obviously taken my post far too literally or personally or have no sense of humour...The clue being
Quote from: Collybolly
Only guessing here (with my tongue in my cheek

I speak from experience.

Having been through 2 messy disputes with employers myself over the years, I can empathise with your situation!! In the first instance I sued over Unfair Selection for Redundancy, enlisted the help of TGWU and won my case. In the second case of Sexual Harassment from a male colleague, the CWU got involved and ditto....although I won (if that's the right word) I didn't do myself any favours at the time or thereafter as I became unemployable and my reputation for being litigious went before me.

Now the boot is on the other foot as an employer.

You wouldn't want to work for me anyway??? I must say, you could do a lot worse than work for me (again tongue in cheek).

I look after my staff, they're well paid & incentivised.No I don't have 'Employee of the Month'...but then I do have 656 staff on my payroll to choose from. I don't think I've done too badly since Incorporating in November 2007. First Year turnover £630,731.09 with 1.2 million projected for this year....what credit crunch?

and more importantly ....no employee disputes.

Anyone need a job?




gordonswindows

  • Posts: 563
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2009, 09:39:04 pm »
Collybolly well done that is most impressive

How did you manage that excellent first year result?

did you buy a business with your hard won compensation? (my tongue firmly stuck in cheek too)

Obviously not shy with your results but why no profile details?

as for Keith no one will employ him and I cant wait until he "goes back to self-employment"

who knows he might become an employer and find the shoes on the other foot

A wee lesson to be learned,  good advice is never welcome

Don't Give Up
@askforthemoney

keith b

  • Posts: 375
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2009, 06:56:49 am »

Yeah right collybolly!, make a comment and then accuse one of a literal or sense of humour failier is not the time or place given the subject matter concerned,.......although I will say that is a great reply and get-out clause for not answering some of the specific points I make,...having said that, I appologize if I have misread or interepreted your comments incorrectly!

Very well done for your success if turns out to be true,....I too have had financial success in my long career, but now I champion the underpriviliged which is far more rewarding!

What is your problem gordonwindows,.......do you not like people who stand up for themselves and have spirit? :o


gordonswindows

  • Posts: 563
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2009, 01:37:09 pm »
To champion the cause of the underpriviliged is one thing using it as a stick to beat others with is another.

Stop whingeing and accept it, you made a wrong decision to accept work from these people and move forward

Spirit? spirit? what do you know of spirit?

Not giving up and making a success of things is spirit........a spirited horse is full of energy and drive ,it doesn't sit in its stall moaning that it is not fair and that it is everybody else's fault

And who gave you the right to stand up for the "under privileged"

You dont even know the meaning of the word,  how do I know? you are able to be on this forum so you have access to a pc,   huh come along with us on a cold wintery Tuesday night and help us help the homeless

Under priviliged my A*@E


Don't Give Up
@askforthemoney

newbroom

  • Posts: 307
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2009, 02:01:33 pm »
     
Qoute from Keith b
" My supervisor and manager love the standard of my work and have no complaints about me as person,........ they too are also up in arms over this guys tactics, (who has just joined the company), and thats without senior members of the police who also are not happy that work is not being covered at different sites .due to his incompetance in spoiling a system that has worked in the past."

Just a quick question how can you assess this guy is spoiling a good system if you have only been there seven weeks?

Collybolly

  • Posts: 59
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2009, 08:18:00 pm »
How did you manage that excellent first year result?
By having national clients, with large multiple sites, who pay on the nose. But its not been easy.

Quote
did you buy a business with your hard won compensation? (my tongue firmly stuck in cheek too)Obviously not shy with your results but why no profile details?

 ;D LOL  no I started with a £5,000 loan from mother! Unfortunately my Co-Director does not want me to elaborate on my profile.

The point I was trying to make to Keith was that, I've been there and sometimes it does no good to "create" waves. I did and wish I'd kept my head down, it severely affected my mental health at the time.

I'm not normally one to blow my own trumpet about my company, but was trying to illustrate that I'm not a numbskull either and do know something about employing a diverse range of people, with their attendant foibles, in the North, Wales and South East and also have good relations with organisations who help people with learning difficulties back into work. No 'disputes' so must be doing something right.

Quote
Very well done for your success if turns out to be true
Keith, you will doubtless know, as a businessman, a Ltd company accounts will be in the public domain. I'll let you know when they're audited and available for public perusal.

The Jobcentre accepts vacancies on the understanding that they meet all the employment, disibility and civil legislation requirements, but they also
ask employers to give them as much information about their needs as possible

I should imagine they have themselves pretty much covered in case of inaccurate or misleading information supplied by employers.

As such the onus is on the emloyer to get the advert right in the first place and mistakes are made. We have some jobs at the moment 16 hours per week. The Jobcentre has it down as 13 hrs !! We wondered why applicants were so few.   

After 7 weeks you have very few rights at work....stay a year then take them to the cleaners (no pun intended)

With that I shall bid you good day..

Karl Wheeler

  • Posts: 377
Re: employee contracts/disputes etc
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2009, 08:25:50 pm »
Hi Collybolly
I am very impressed with how you have built such a successfull business in a short time. I feel that i have a reasonable business but obviously not to the scale of yours.
I would like to hear any advice you may have for building a business to the scale you have and would very much appreciate hearing from you.

You can email me on karl@cleantechcleaning.co.uk

I look forward to hearing from you

Karl