[vivaro 013]

looking at a job

 triple rope ladder required as guttering is 12mtrs high , is it possible you can harness your yourself anyway
any help would be appreciated

[David Slater]

Unless the ladder itself is 'fixed' to something I dont think it would be a good idea to attach yourself to a ladder.

1. If the ladder has no 'anchor' or 'fastening' point for fall arrest equipment. Then it should not be used for that purpose.

2. The Hazard is using a ladder. The Risk is ladder falling/you falling from ladder...physically attaching yourself to the indentified Hazard isnt going to win you many points with the HSE!

Go up ladder and drill and attach an approved eyebolt and use that to fasten your FAE. Then update your Risk Assessment to include extra contigencies for the FAE (rescue procedures).   

[Kevin R]

looking at a job

 triple rope ladder required as guttering is 12mtrs high , is it possible you can harness your yourself anyway
any help would be appreciated

This type of climb should only be attempted after ALL OTHER alternatives have been eliminated. A ladder on a commercial job may only be used for short duration work (under 30 mins) if you cannot complete the whole job in 30 mins you should consider using a safer alternative. 

Another valid point is does your insurance cover you for this height of work. I do commercial guttering work most weeks. My insurance is only valid up to 9m from a ladder Max and then only as a last resort. It has to be tied where possible and anti slip safety devices must be used. Footing is not allowed.

Triple rope operated ladders have several problems too - due to the weight they are often a two or three man operation to erect. They are incredibly bouncy to climb. Also a fall from that height will kill or seriously injure you.

If you are not familiar with this type of work may I suggest getting some help or passing it on. Don't risk your health for a few quid.

[EVER CLEAN]

oh come on
12 meters is less than 40 foot...........whats wrong with you!.... get up there

a "real" window cleaner would'nt think twice
and this is not being stupid, its about being confident, and aware of your own capabilities
this kind of question is the result of wfp.
window cleaning is a skill, an artform performed by confident, experienced tradesmen, who's ladder is an extension of their right arm... NOT IDIOTS WHO ASK IF THEY SHOULD HARNESS UP TO A LADDER!.... what a joker!

[mistersqueegee]

oh come on
12 meters is less than 40 foot...........whats wrong with you!.... get up there

a "real" window cleaner would'nt think twice
and this is not being stupid, its about being confident, and aware of your own capabilities
this kind of question is the result of wfp.
window cleaning is a skill, an artform performed by confident, experienced tradesmen, who's ladder is an extension of their right arm... NOT IDIOTS WHO ASK IF THEY SHOULD HARNESS UP TO A LADDER!.... what a joker!

Of course confidence should never be confused w/ bravado. I too use 40ft ladders but given the choice I'd rather wfp it.
 I agree it's foolish to tie off to a ladder that's not itself fastened appropriately to the structure.

[Kevin R]

oh come on
12 meters is less than 40 foot...........whats wrong with you!.... get up there

a "real" window cleaner would'nt think twice
and this is not being stupid, its about being confident, and aware of your own capabilities
this kind of question is the result of wfp.
window cleaning is a skill, an artform performed by confident, experienced tradesmen, who's ladder is an extension of their right arm... NOT IDIOTS WHO ASK IF THEY SHOULD HARNESS UP TO A LADDER!.... what a joker!

I totally agree with the sentiment, I have been using ladders for many years and find them no problem to use. Unfortunately, experienced and inexperienced ladder users alike have had accidents that have and still do result in death or serious injury.  Commercial clients and insurance companies are well aware of the statistics and there is a move as all will be aware to ladder alternatives. This is not to say "never" use a ladder as they do have appropriate uses.  

whether we agree or disagree with current H & S legislation its here to stay and I bet it will get stricter as we go.

Remember the stupid follow rules and tend to survive - the slightly ingenious are much better at inventing ways to get hurt  

[EVER CLEAN]

i agree..... but you can't wfp a gutter...... you need to get the moss out of it!

people like him should not even attempt to price a job like that, never mind attempt to do it

so take my advice vivaro  either tell the custy that your'e not a real window cleaner, and you can't do it, or pass the job on to someone with more experience. then sit down and imagine the consequences of harnessing to a 40ft ladder thats leaning on a plastic gutter, at this time of year when winds are starting to blow, its common sense man!

[Kevin R]

i agree..... but you can't wfp a gutter...... you need to get the moss out of it!

But you can use an Omnivac 

[EVER CLEAN]

is it worth buying one for a single job?

anyway he'd probably harness himself to it and be late home for his dinner

[Kevin R]

is it worth buying one for a single job?

anyway he'd probably harness himself to it and be late home for his dinner

LOL 

[Wayne Thomas]

i agree..... but you can't wfp a gutter...... you need to get the moss out of it!

people like him should not even attempt to price a job like that, never mind attempt to do it

so take my advice vivaro  either tell the custy that your'e not a real window cleaner, and you can't do it, or pass the job on to someone with more experience. then sit down and imagine the consequences of harnessing to a 40ft ladder thats leaning on a plastic gutter, at this time of year when winds are starting to blow, its common sense man!

I watched a painter emptying gutters the other day. No ladder stand off, no stabilisers and the ladder was sitting well above the plastic guttering at a very, very steep angle. I watched the ladder sliding sideways as he was climbing up and down each time. He was holding the guttering with one hand (I think that was to stop the ladder sliding anymore), whilst with his other hand he was emptying the guttering.
I told him I thought he was a total idiot who didn't have a clue what he was doing and left him to it. Recession makes a few idiots do some really stupid things.

[David Slater]

oh come on
12 meters is less than 40 foot...........whats wrong with you!.... get up there

a "real" window cleaner would'nt think twice
and this is not being stupid, its about being confident, and aware of your own capabilities
this kind of question is the result of wfp.
window cleaning is a skill, an artform performed by confident, experienced tradesmen, who's ladder is an extension of their right arm... NOT IDIOTS WHO ASK IF THEY SHOULD HARNESS UP TO A LADDER!.... what a joker!

The guy asked a question. He seems sincere and it looks like a genuine post.

Who does it help exactly to belittle and bully that person - You? or Him?

With all due respect, if your answer is to simply 'get on with it' I'm afraid you make yourself look like a 'joker' and a bit of an 'idiot'. Its statements like these that brought the HSE into existence in the first place.

Being 'confident' doesnt stop accidents. Indeed over-confidence has been show to be a major contributory factor in workplace accidents....falling from 40 feet would allow you one mistake. You get it wrong and you're dead.

[ftp]

[quote

Go up ladder and drill and attach an approved eyebolt and use that to fasten your FAE. Then update your Risk Assessment to include extra contigencies for the FAE (rescue procedures).   

Surely that's dangerous going up a forty foot ladder with a drill in one hand? What if you fell off?

[ronnie paton]

well i think using a ladder at that height is pur stupid imean you said it everclean the wind at this time of year even when footed your playing with your life.

ladders dont need to  be used at that height there are plenty of options and if you do use ladders on a job at this height you havent done a proper risk assesment method statement....falling at this height would be death!!

[David Slater]

[quote

Go up ladder and drill and attach an approved eyebolt and use that to fasten your FAE. Then update your Risk Assessment to include extra contigencies for the FAE (rescue procedures).   

Surely that's dangerous going up a forty foot ladder with a drill in one hand? What if you fell off?

Yep!!...it sounds odd doesnt it.

This is the approved method for satellite dish installers by all accounts.

The theory was outlined above (limited duration of ladder use without FAE)...so basically, its 'sort of' OK to go up the ladder to attach the eyebolt but its not OK to go up there and work.

Personally, I wouldnt use ladders at that height FULL STOP!

*IF* anything happened to you (or God forbid, an employee) the HSE and local enviromenal officer would crucify you!

Did you consider other alternatives Mr Smith?
Did you evaluate the Hazard Mr Smith?
Can we see your Risk assessment Mr Smith?

You'd have an expensive day in court possibly follwed by a lenghy holiday at Her Majestys expense!

  

[tacky]

when iwas younger i did things that make a trapeeze artist a novice .when i think back i think what a wally i was for a few quid . ps leave the 40ft gutter to the experienced .better to b one job less .than accident waiting to happen .

[David Slater]

when iwas younger i did things that make a trapeeze artist a novice .when i think back i think what a wally i was for a few quid . ps leave the 40ft gutter to the experienced .better to b one job less .than accident waiting to happen .

Its not leaving it to the experienced that matters. Its working safely that matters.

No matter how may times you have used a ladder at 40 feet it is still a Hazard. No questions. No argument. Full stop!

Advising somebody to "just get on with it" is tantamount to culpable homicide (or corporate manslaughter!).

There is no such thing as working dangerously mitigated by experience. You are either working dangerously or you are not.

EverClean seems to have an opinion on this subject but has failed to respond. I await his response with anticipation.

In my humble opinion, presuming the OP has considered all other reasonably practicable alternatives, then he should be looking at FAE to complete this work.

If he hasnt considired all other reasonably practicable alternatives, then they must be explored before using ladders....not just "get on with it" as a certain poster suggested. ...who I would humbly suggest hasnt got a clue!!!

[[GQC] Tim]

oh come on
12 meters is less than 40 foot...........whats wrong with you!.... get up there

a "real" window cleaner would'nt think twice
and this is not being stupid, its about being confident, and aware of your own capabilities
this kind of question is the result of wfp.
window cleaning is a skill, an artform performed by confident, experienced tradesmen, who's ladder is an extension of their right arm... NOT IDIOTS WHO ASK IF THEY SHOULD HARNESS UP TO A LADDER!.... what a joker!

Ever Clean, you should have told that 'convidence and a skilled ladder user' bit to the customer who opened their porch door and banged the door against my ladder, or the customer who opened their triple garage door, and slammed my ladder upside down (that one luckily I just cleaned a downstairs window!)

So you see, like being a perfect driver doesn't guard you against a 90 year old lady that didn't look right before she pulled out, the same applies to using a ladder. You are 40ft up in the air, and the ground is 40ft away, good enough to get you killed. Invest in the proper tools like a gutter vacuum and be safe.

Or you missed that little bit of moss on one of the stones, and your ladder feet didn't agree with it, extension of your body allright, when you slam your face into the rungs.

[David Slater]

oh come on
12 meters is less than 40 foot...........whats wrong with you!.... get up there

a "real" window cleaner would'nt think twice
and this is not being stupid, its about being confident, and aware of your own capabilities
this kind of question is the result of wfp.
window cleaning is a skill, an artform performed by confident, experienced tradesmen, who's ladder is an extension of their right arm... NOT IDIOTS WHO ASK IF THEY SHOULD HARNESS UP TO A LADDER!.... what a joker!

Ever Clean, you should have told that 'convidence and a skilled ladder user' bit to the customer who opened their porch door and banged the door against my ladder, or the customer who opened their triple garage door, and slammed my ladder upside down (that one luckily I just cleaned a downstairs window!)

So you see, like being a perfect driver doesn't guard you against a 90 year old lady that didn't look right before she pulled out, the same applies to using a ladder. You are 40ft up in the air, and the ground is 40ft away, good enough to get you killed. Invest in the proper tools like a gutter vacuum and be safe.

Or you missed that little bit of moss on one of the stones, and your ladder feet didn't agree with it, extension of your body allright, when you slam your face into the bars.

Well said Tim...and good examples!

YES, ladders still have their place..... But I wouldnt like to employed by Everclean if this is his work ethos and overt peer pressure towards staff. He's an accident waiting to happen in my humble opinion!!



...and the HSE will hang him out to dry!!! 

[[GQC] Tim]

Just to add, I do still use ladders for one or two things, mostly flat roofs, but I make sure I've always got two things, that's my ladderm8rix and ladder mits. On top of that I make sure that accidents like the afore mentioned cannot happen under any circumstance.