[In_Safe_Hands]

I will be starting up a recruitment drive in the next couple of weeks and had always planned to look for part time cleaners (17hr pw contracts).  However, a friend of mine has suggested it might make more sense to put people onto zero hour contracts.  I can see the benefits: 

1. Don't have to pay if there's not enough work in a particular week. 
2. Flexibility if there's loads of work so shouldn't have to pay overtime until extra staff are recruited.
3.  I'm also planning on trying to get into the end-of-tenancy area so I expect this to be quite sporadic to start with.

I just wondered if anyone else had any views on this at all.  I'd never even heard of these types of contracts until my friend mentioned it.

Thanks
 

[Jan K]

I run a dom cleaning service, and although I employ all my cleaners (rather than them being self employed), they are all employed on a casual contract, thereby I don't pay them if they do not work for whatever reason (as my customers don't pay me if they don't get a clean). Also there aren't really set hours as such, even tho my cleaners work regular hours, my Clients can cancel with only 48 hrs notice, although it has been less, and I don't really mind too much. Plus I don't pay overtime, if my peeps work extra hours they get their flat rate! It works for me and my girls (although I only have 2 at the mo)

[BSF]

Hi Jan

Can I ask how you calculate holiday pay on this basis.

Regards

Paul

[Jan K]

Hi Paul!

As the business is really small, my Cleaners and I have agreed no holiday pay, (no work, no pay).....this is an agreement between us.....of course as the business grows and they grow with me I will reconsider....it works for us, and I am lucky that one of my cleaners is a pal of mine, I spose I am lucky to have them!!

[garyj]

Jan, have you put your prices up yet? By law you really should be giving your staff holiday pay, they may well make a claim in the future, especially if anything goes wrong between you. If you do have to pay them holiday, then ALL your profit is gone, you may well even be out of pocket. Factor in, insurance, materials and vehicles etc, then you really are LOSING money at £7.50 an hour.

[Jan K]

yea i know by law I should be paying them holiday pay, but I did check with ACAS, and was told it was ok NOT to pay holiday pay as long as the employees are fully aware of the situation and as they are casuals. I did look into this thoroughly before devising all my contracts etc and as I said it was agreed by myself and the cleaners, as the busines grown so holiday pay will be introduced. also I have recently written to my existing Clients advising the price increase with effect April. All new Clients will be quoted the new price.

[BSF]

Hi Jan

I employ seven staff, six have set hours on commercial work so I give them four weeks holiday pay. One works on a casual basis, so my question was for any advice on holiday pay for her, I did think the same as GaryJ when I read your reply, but if youve covered this good for you!

Has anyone else on the forum got a solution for me, as I want a way of calculating holiday pay for this member of staff, I know as you said (Jan) If I want to I can avoid this (as employee has yet to get a contract) but I am willing to pay holiday pay! By the way Jan I'm in Cheshire we charge £10 an hour plus Vat for domestic work, up to yet we've had no clients cancel our service, as recently my company had to register for Vat so we sent all our clients letters with the reason for the price increase.

I think if a client is happy with the service they will be happy to go with an increase.

By the way we turn down alot of work due to recruitment problems, finding good staff is alot harder than I ever expected. So if anyone knows of any good domestic cleaners (available for work) in mid Cheshire please let me know!!!!

Regards

Paul

[Jan K]

Hi Paul!

have you tried looking at the ACAS website... it really is very good, they have a bit there about working out holiday pay...here it is........

Extracted from following link......  http://www.acas.org.uk/publications/al03.html

How is a week's pay calculated?
For each week of their statutory leave entitlement workers are entitled to be paid a week's pay calculated in accordance with sections 221-224 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 as follows:

Workers with normal working hours

- If a worker's pay does not vary with the amount of work done then a week's pay is the amount due for a week's work under the worker's contract. Pay for non contractual overtime is excluded.

- If a worker's pay varies with the amount of work done then the amount of a week's pay is the pay for the normal weekly working hours multiplied by the workers average hourly rate over the preceding 12 weeks. This may occur under a piece work, bonus or commission system. To calculate the average hourly rate only hours where the worker was working, and the pay related to them, should be taken into account. Overtime hours can be included although pay for these hours should be adjusted to the normal rate. Any week in which no pay was due, for hours worked, should be replaced by the last previous week in which pay was received for hours worked.

- Shift and rota workers, whose pay varies because they work their normal hours at varying times and in varying amounts in different weeks, have their week's pay calculated differently. Their average weekly hours of work, in the preceding twelve weeks, are multiplied by their average hourly rate. The hourly rate is calculated as above and includes any shift allowance which is payable.

Workers with no normal working hours

- If a worker has no normal working hours then a week's pay is the average pay received over the preceding 12 weeks. Any week for which no pay was due should be replaced by the last previous week for which pay was due.

[BSF]

Thanks for the link Jan!

I will take a good look at that.

Kind regard's

Paul

[Jan K]

your welcome paul, it's a bit of a minefield, at least for those of us who don't have cleaners working regular hours or even weeks

[Pamo]

Hi all.
I recently started a temporary cleaning job in a local factory to keep me going, I am being paid £5.57 per hour for a 20 hour week and 8.33% of this is holiday pay.
I have distributed 100's of flyers with no response as yet, will keep plooding along though 
Pam O

[Jan K]

Hi Pam!

I have managed to get most of my work, by sending spec letters to certain professions! For example, most of my Clients are Teachers who replied to letters I sent to all the schools in the area. I also sent out spec letters to Solicitors. I generally pop a little postcard type ad in an envelope with a note on the back asking if they would be so kind as to pop the card on their notice board.........it works slowly but surely for me............I designed and printed everything myslef and for the cost of a 2nd class stamp, I more than covered my costs per customer. That way too, I could carry on cleaning without spending redundant time plodding the streets for no money! The way I read it, flyers don't work very often. Send some of your stuff out to specific professions/businesses. Just as a point of interest, I had to take a break from typing this to answer a call from a prospective Client, who I think I amy well have sold myself too at £9.00 p/h for 4 hrs per week..........the confidence is building and I am a very happy lassie!!

Pam.....Yellow Pages and do it yourself spec letters.works for me every time!!

[CATMAN]

I read with disbelief some of the replies. No holiday pay, no work, no pay, and you have recruitment problems. No wonder, and no bloody wonder this industry gets such a poor press.

This is 2005 not the 19th century. Treat your staff with respect, after all they only come to work for money, and  time off with pay.

I have 4 full time staff, and pay them well at least £8, holidays, overtime, sick pay. Time off for personal reasons. They are all a credit to my business which is thriving through their hard work and efforts. I treat them the way I would expect to be treated, like a human being.

If this country still had chimneys some of you lot would have your cleaners up them.

Talk about upscruplous employers. Role on when holiday pay is mandatory.







 

[BSF]

Hi Catman

Good for you if you can give your staff all these perks and benefits, I think you should read all the posts again! I can give the majority of my staff holiday pay etc, as they work set hours.... paid for by fixed contracts.

But the work I have for one of the staff is as and when required so I would be a fool to offer her a contract of employment for £7.50 an hour, 4 weeks holiday, company sick pay etc, for work that I might not have the following week! If I did this (and Jan or anybody else) I wouldn’t have a business.... my post was to enquire of a fair way to calculate holiday pay for this employee.. 

Regards Paul

[Fox]

Hi Paul

Some of my staff work part time others full time, they all get holiday pay, their hours may vary from week to week due to extra works.  Holiday pay is calculated by adding up the last 12 weeks worked then divide by 12 for average weeks earnings.  If someone is only with me for say three weeks and they leave I also pay them any holiday due calculated on the same basis but 3 weeks etc.

Catman
I see where you are coming from but there is an inbetween, I treat staff with respect and pay a good hourly rate.  I only pay ssp (obviously only if entiltled) you can claim this back if it amounts to more than 13% of your payroll in total.

I also only pay for hours worked, however being in the commercial game it is not likely that employees standard hours per week will change and as long as the cleaner does a good job the contracts carry on running and the hours stay, can't say fairer than that.  If I paid a straight wage to all employees regardless of hours worked I would soon go under, having said that I have previously had people on salaries for a certain amount of hours per week and if they worked less hrs still paid them that amount, it also worked that some weeks they may have worked more but not paid anymore, swings and roundabouts really.

Jan
Personally I think you are being unfair not paying holiday pay, with the prices you charge and the staff not getting basic benefits you may be heading for a harsh lesson in business.

Fox

[Jan K]

Yes I may well be heading for a harsh lesson in business, but can I add one thing.....my business is still at very early stages, but it is a good one, I do not have many Clients but most of the ones I do have are being worked by my 2 ladies. They are earning more a week than I am. they are both very aware that they are working alongside me to build a good business and will reap the benefits in the future. I have looked into rolled-up holiday pay, which means they would need to put aside money from their hourly pay to cover holidays, but working Time Directives may not allow this, although it isn't actually illegal. I wish I was earning enough to meet my yearly tax allowance let alone register for VAT, and before some of you say is it really worth working for such a pittance........my answer is yes, because out of my very small business I now have 2 extremely happy employees, one is a friend who has just bought herself a (second-hand, but reliable) car which she could never have done before, and she actually has money in her pocket which she never had before. The other is now going to be able to spend more time with her kids instead of having to work weekends and shifts to make less money than she is with me. OK so I may be heading for a fall, but if that happens I will pick myself up, brush myself down and start all over again! I am determined to make my business work, and will only be able to do this if I have hapy Clients and moreover happy Cleaners.....The Clients are easy to come by, but the Cleaners are not.......it isn't always money that makes people happy, although it does help.....but it is the other things in life that keeps us all ticking over too, and I have a very happy balance at present!!
 

OK rant over, defence mechanism disarmed.......I am pleased so many of you out there have huge turnovers etc etc, I hope one day that I can be comfortable too

[BSF]

Hi Fox

Thanks for the info! it helps... like you I employ full and part time staff and most of the time they work set hours so holiday pay is easy, this post was for this one member of staff who works on a casual basis. (normally in the past I have used sub contractors for this type of work)

Jan, Ive had a look at the acas web-site its very helpful thanx  good on ya you will get their very soon.  My first year was the same, you just have to think positive.  The key to any good business is getting good staff and treating them right.  But most of all getting customers to pay those invoices on time!

all the best Paul

[Jan K]

Absolutely Paul......building a good business takes time and I imagine it will take at least a year to 2 before I really start to reap any real benefits from it. But you are so right about the staff........I make sure everyone who works for me knows exactly the situation with the business, and as both my girls are aware that they are earning more from the business than I am, I think they are supportive of me and where we are going as they are with me from the beginning, and know it can only grow from there. My plans for the future are to make my friend (who is my first and best cleaner) my right hand woman.......so when I am looking after my Clients, she wil be looking after the Cleaners.......shw is aware of that and has something to look forward too. As I have said in previous posts, it isn't all about money, it's about peace of mind, and if I can prove to be a good boss, who is approachable but not taken advantage of, then I feel there is a good working relationship 

[maggie67]

HI Jan

Clearly we can see that you are in the first throws and have had to deal with many obstructions along the way (and you've kept at it!)

The research you have carried out is evidence enough that you are a committed employer and firmly interested in the welfare of your staff!

Every business operates differently obviously you are no fool and so long as time & interest are put into your small number of staff (which clearly it is) and they are happy you will all reap the benefits in the long run including HOLIDAY PAY!

One step at a time

Maggie

[Jan K]

Hi Maggie!

Thanks for you support, indeed  have carried out plenty of research, and  do not intend to deprive my Cleaners of any of their rights in the long run, but they can see that at present they are benefiting more from my business than I am. They are loyal and honest and hardworking and will benefit even more in the future!