[zeusweiler]

Ok this is how i see things. wfp is getting a bad name and it's mostly down to inexperienced users havin a few quid to spend with free time on there hands and spraying water about everywhere without a second thought of how it effects everyone else.

The forums are full of people everyday asking advice on starting up, what kit to buy, how much will they make and i am seeing an increasing number of people stating that people are not happy having there windows cleaned this way anymore and are switching back to trad.

this is down to inexperience within the industry. now i'm not claiming i know it all i dont. but i know that the system can do a good job on most work and i know enough to get good results which has came from working with people that know what they are doing and learning. 

Now the forums can be good if people are willing to take the time to read and learn but most of the times they prefer to go fastrack and post a few Q's and off they go out makin a mess.

I am also talking about the nationals that continue to hire inexperienced cheap labour and unleash them on the industry without training in a diy death trap van. offering a window service to clients that they wont even make a profit on to maintain there full facillity status to make it harder to boot them out even when they are crap as they do the security, cleaning, windows, gardening etc.

Sure window cleaning is no science however it is a skilled job and there are a certain way of doing things. with all the talk of ladder bans and saftey aspects like van systems and how they are secured everyone fails to mention the obvious when a newbie comes on looking at how to start up coz they have done a web search on google and it's brought them to the advice forums.

the obvious i stated is this. it is only a matter of time before someone that has no idea on how to control a pole will either drop it on someone or hurt themselves as they are unaware of how to handle, extend, lift and move them in the correct way. the other that i am very surprised at is there is never talk of powerlines and electricity issues to newbies just what to buy and where from.

i always hear this also, pure water is non conductive so we will be alright its a glass fibre pole. yeh its a bad conductor package not a non conductor package think about the dirty water that travels down the outside of the pole electricity can also jump to a grounded point.

although the forums are good for advice and keeping people up to date with new advancements and equipment there are also issues with them being open to everyone for basic advice on how to start up which in turn creates another 10 inexperienced users a week with no real clue out there to give the system a bad name. a recipe for self destruction.

Now i know that everyone has to start somewhere and everyone has to learn but the truth is this if someone comes on a forum asking what is the best way to get into window cleaning the first response should be go and work with someone that knows what they are doing and serve your time for a few years and become a pro first or at least get reasonable training and experience. they will if they are serious about it. and if you are a company established in another area pay good money and take on someone who knows a bit about it and put the employees through the relevent training

In some cases i think you would be helping people not to help them as it could save them from hurting themselves or others and it might have a knock on effect to your own business in the future through inexperienced users giving the system a bad name with continued bad results and damage to properties. i'm not thinking of myself as i'm not self employed.

I know it sounds bad not helping people but i couldn't become a doctor over night just coz i was told where to buy a stethoscope if people are serious about it they will take the time to learn.
 

[NWH]

My customers like it another WC`s hate it so who`s in the wrong,the bloke using it everytime.I`ve seen some guy`s using WFP and just by watching from distance you can tell there doing an awfull job,some people just think it`s litterally a squirt of water and bob`s your uncle.It`s no different to trad cleaning there is a method and a routine to be used to get good results.

[zeusweiler]

my point exactly we do alot of trad also alongside wfp. i used to be one of these guys unleashed by a national on the industry to do my wost with a 40ft glass fibre pole with no training which is why i started the topic

[geefree]

I have only been doing this two years now... started trad... then edged into wfp...

the amount of advice i got on here was invaluable, i made all the mistakes at the beginning, posted my questions and have been put right..(and put back in my place  )... time and time again.

i do agree hands on experience with someone who knows the business inside out is the best way to go.... and perhaps i should have asked that in the beginning.

but i have learnt by my mistakes...( not by dropping a pole on someones head )

i now i feel i do a top class job, when i first started i always told my customers if ever they were not happy , i would do them again , for free.!

That really kept me on my toes, and made sure i did a top job...as i did not want to do it again... so it was slow, slow, slow to begin with... then i increased my speed, still doing a good job..

I Am still new at this , so i cant,, and dont normally comment on a lot of posts , when people are just starting out.. as i would more often than not sound inexperienced... but i have commented.. and have been put right, by the top experienced guys on here . whose opinions are priceless.

One thing i have noticed since i joined, are the amount of new guys who have started since... but i also have seen quite a few posts , from people who have decided to call it a day.

One thing i do know and will say.... is when i first decided i wanted to join your profession, i really did think it was going to be a walk in the park...

How wrong was i ?

It is hard work, with commitment, drive and lots of energy and enthusiasm required,

working in the cold winters, the rain..or being rained off,,, no money for days on end... building a round,, leaflet dropping.. trying to get the money in.... it takes a hell of a lot out of you.



at times, in the beginning i was ready for walking away.

Now i am just starting to feel the rewards after 2 years... and lots of money spent.lots.

Its a good post here, zeusweiler... it made me think of how i was at the beginning, with a big smile on my face and a squeegy in my hand..

its like any other business, it commands all of your time, lots of money (wfp)..
and total commitment.

Gary

[Londoner]

Yes, I agree with pretty well everything said on here so far so I am not going to bore everyone by rehashing it or going over it again.

[Kevin R]

When I started wfp I had to learn by trial and error. I applied "common sense" and practiced on my house and friend houses until I understood the theory. I then applied it to my round. I gave my customers an "education" and worked with them expressing the benefits but explaining my inexperience. My customers were most excellent. I had no cancellations and I learnt loads from feedback

There is very little I won't now do with wfp. I have an eleventh century farm house I do as well as properties for the National Trust right up to modern office blocks. There are a couple of types of windows that are generally unsuitable but on the whole wfp is an excellent tool and the finish is every bit as good as trad (This was not always the case for me).

I guess what I am trying to express is with patients and communication I have become a good all round window cleaner. I have mastered my tools and I provide a quality assured service. I never have problems finding work as my reputation precedes me. I have picked up many a client that have had bad wfp operators and I have showed them it was the operator not the tool that was at fault.

If window cleaners come into this profession and don't have the sense or decency to learn their skill, treat customers with respect and courtesy and above all provide a service that is second to none then they will soon become known as cowboys as in any other profession and eventually they will cease trading.

I have watched many a window cleaning firm come and go. The good guys with customer and business skills survive. A bad  window cleaner does not effect my business in a bad way and neither does all this talk of wfp having a bad name worry me at all.  

I'm good at what I do - My service speaks for its self - end of discussion  

[zeusweiler]

Just to state i am not in anyway having a go at anyone especially people whome have learned by themselves but have used common sense and have drive and ambition this is good and i have respect for these people this is just my opinion.

my point is that these people that start up and then fold through bad service and lack of knowledge may indeed hurt someone or themselves one day i have seen some scary sights and near misses when i was one of these people that worked for these companies that pay low hire just about anyone and give them a 40ft pole.

[tradman]

all that will happen is this....B & Q or someone similar will be approached by an inventor type person who can make a di unit a hozelock..a cheap pole 20ft pole for less than £50 as long as they order loads, punters will see you lot taking 5 mins (probably less) and think, i can do that....and the problem will be that they would be able to... may take an hour but at the prices you guys charge, they'll be happy to. the real crux will be that they will have pure water on tap ( literally) and then B & Q will make money out of small bags of di resin for an excellent return. i reckon it's less than a year away as i know one supplier who actually already sells a setup already but it's over £150 but when companies like B & Q get on board they will use there massive procurement setup and manufacturing skills and do it...better sell up now ladz...because by the end of 2009 wfpers will be working for less than they were 5 years ago (on ladders) because they will be desperate to win work to payoff the investment they bought on hp or worse still leased

[Kevin R]

Just to state i am not in anyway having a go at anyone especially people whome have learned by themselves but have used common sense and have drive and ambition this is good and i have respect for these people this is just my opinion.

my point is that these people that start up and then fold through bad service and lack of knowledge may indeed hurt someone or themselves one day i have seen some scary sights and near misses when i was one of these people that worked for these companies that pay low hire just about anyone and give them a 40ft pole.

For employers there are certain legal requirements - unfortunately In my experience you can have as much staff training and implemented safe practices as you like but as the saying goes "you pay peanuts you get monkeys". Unfortunately in this current day and age you pay a good wage and you still get monkeys. I now choose to use sub-contractors as they tend to have a little more idea and a good work ethic. I used to think subbies were expensive but compared to lazy and can't be assed to work today staff are they really?

I have always been a believer in evolution - all these health and safety laws to protect the stupid just cause problems for the intelligent. You can read a safety manual to a monkey as much as you like, but will he understand it? Well it doesn't matter as long as he signs the form to say he has.

Ok there are good and bad firms and staff but as in nature its survival of the fittest - And quality will always show.  

[Kevin R]

all that will happen is this....B & Q or someone similar will be approached by an inventor type person who can make a di unit a hozelock..a cheap pole 20ft pole for less than £50 as long as they order loads, punters will see you lot taking 5 mins (probably less) and think, i can do that....and the problem will be that they would be able to... may take an hour but at the prices you guys charge, they'll be happy to. the real crux will be that they will have pure water on tap ( literally) and then B & Q will make money out of small bags of di resin for an excellent return. i reckon it's less than a year away as i know one supplier who actually already sells a setup already but it's over £150 but when companies like B & Q get on board they will use there massive procurement setup and manufacturing skills and do it...better sell up now ladz...because by the end of 2009 wfpers will be working for less than they were 5 years ago (on ladders) because they will be desperate to win work to payoff the investment they bought on hp or worse still leased

Absolute twaddle - The invention your talking about is already available in B & Q for washing cars - but how many people use it? Every person I have seen washing the car lately has soap everywhere.

People don't want to spent their spare time cleaning their own windows, most of mine would rather pay me and they do. Ok so some will clean their own as they do now but there will always be a market as there always has been.

[geefree]

[/qu
ote]
Absolute twaddle - The invention your talking about is already available in B & Q for washing cars - but how many people use it? Every person I have seen washing the car lately has soap everywhere.

People don't want to spent their spare time cleaning their own windows, most of mine would rather pay me and they do. Ok so some will clean their own as they do now but there will always be a market as there always has been.

thank god for that.

[ftp]

B&Q sell ladders, squeegies and applicators Tradman are you worried? 

[tradman]

nahh. anyone can do my job, life's to short to worry about window cleaning i mean it's not rocket science is it? more worried about if hamilton will win f1.

[KLEEN-ZONE]

all that will happen is this....B & Q or someone similar will be approached by an inventor type person who can make a di unit a hozelock..a cheap pole 20ft pole for less than £50 as long as they order loads, punters will see you lot taking 5 mins (probably less) and think, i can do that....and the problem will be that they would be able to... may take an hour but at the prices you guys charge, they'll be happy to. the real crux will be that they will have pure water on tap ( literally) and then B & Q will make money out of small bags of di resin for an excellent return. i reckon it's less than a year away as i know one supplier who actually already sells a setup already but it's over £150 but when companies like B & Q get on board they will use there massive procurement setup and manufacturing skills and do it...better sell up now ladz...because by the end of 2009 wfpers will be working for less than they were 5 years ago (on ladders) because they will be desperate to win work to payoff the investment they bought on hp or worse still leased

This was a good thread, until this rubbish was entered.

[zeusweiler]

all that will happen is this....B & Q or someone similar will be approached by an inventor type person who can make a di unit a hozelock..a cheap pole 20ft pole for less than £50 as long as they order loads, punters will see you lot taking 5 mins (probably less) and think, i can do that....and the problem will be that they would be able to... may take an hour but at the prices you guys charge, they'll be happy to. the real crux will be that they will have pure water on tap ( literally) and then B & Q will make money out of small bags of di resin for an excellent return. i reckon it's less than a year away as i know one supplier who actually already sells a setup already but it's over £150 but when companies like B & Q get on board they will use there massive procurement setup and manufacturing skills and do it...better sell up now ladz...because by the end of 2009 wfpers will be working for less than they were 5 years ago (on ladders) because they will be desperate to win work to payoff the investment they bought on hp or worse still leased

no offence intended but you cant really use this as an example that will effect just the wfp cleaners out there. If this was indeed to happen it would effect the industry as a whole including trad cleaners as one person would tell another and B&Q would advertise it so much that just about everyone would be ditching the cleaner more so now that people are tightening there belts. truth is that most cant be bothered to clean there own windows anyway which is why we are all in a job. even if it was to happen the guys that did purchase the pole system initially after once being trad would be able to offer a more detailed service by using it to easily clean frames and prewash on first cleans then doing trad, extras, facias con roofs etc which would then impact on your trad work. most people have always had the opertunity to clean there own windows as its there houses so most can turn them in and blade them. they cant be bothered though. if this principle were true then people would simply of bladed there own bottom windows and just get the cleaner to do the tops long before wfp to save money and if everyone did it you would have no choice but to do tops only or change career but the truth  is they cant be bothered. yes there are certain windows that cant be turned but there are also certain windows a trad only cleaner cant access. in this day and age it shouldn't be trad against wfp, window cleaners should be able to use all the tools of the trade.

[zeusweiler]

Complete rubbish, window cleaning and window cleaners have always had it share of bad operators, any new equipment just because its new wont solve the problem and is not the cause.

public, personal and employee's saftey as an operator is everyone's concern and problem so it's not complete rubbish is it.

[zeusweiler]

I'm not blaming the tool read the post through again cant see how you have came to this conclusion. i use wfp at work everyday and trad

[WCE]

zeusweiler, Why are you deleting your accounts on all the forums? Going into rehab? It'll never work! You'll be back!

[tommo69]

B&Q sell ladders, squeegies and applicators Tradman are you worried? 
[/quhote]hi just joined this forum what do you know about tradman?

[alanwilson]

you can buy all the equipment to paint your home in B+Q for less than £50 - nearly everyone gets a painter in, its not a highly skilled job but people don't want to do it themselves.

panic over guys