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maclock cleaning

  • Posts: 75
how to prevent browning????
« on: February 08, 2005, 10:56:45 pm »
hi to all

is their anyone out their who could explain to me how to prevent browning? and would i discuss this with the customer before starting work?

thanks
Newcastle Upon Tyne..........

Dave Parry

  • Posts: 411
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2005, 11:59:36 pm »
Dont soak the carpet. ;D ;D ;D
Bracknell, Berkshire,
Phoenix T/M,
http://www.cleanercarpets.org/index.html

Gavin Reardon

  • Posts: 464
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2005, 12:48:07 am »
Hi there

Browning

A Yellow or brownish discolouration of the carpet's face, Usually cassed by impurities in cellulosic fibres such as cotton and jute,

Which wick up to the face fibers on overwetting. Most often caused by: excess aikalinity in the cleaning solution used in the cleaning process;

actived alkaline residue left by the cleaning efforts; overwetting; or a
combination of these. May sometimes appear in shades other that brown or yellow depending on colour of affected carpet.

hope this helps a bit  ;)

regards

Gavin

Gavin Reardon IICRC / NCCA

www.ace-cleaning.co.uk

Mike Halliday

  • Posts: 11578
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2005, 06:55:15 am »
I don't see any reason to discuss browning with the customer, it very rarely happens, and like the advice so far, don't overwet &  use an acid Fibre rinse

Mike
Mike Halliday.  www.henryhalliday.co.uk

cleanability

  • Posts: 574
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2005, 09:42:47 am »
While the subject has been brought up. Out of interest. If browning has ocurred will another less wet etc clean remove the browning?

                                               Chris

Chris Bailey

  • Posts: 281
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2005, 10:07:52 am »
Mike

Do you use an acid rinse on every clean, even with M/S?

Chris
Carpet Care

Leicester

Ian Rochester

  • Posts: 2588
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2005, 10:16:42 am »
No, the only way to get rid of browning is by using a product like DE BROWN from Extracta.

My understanding is that browning normally occurs in light single colour carpets that have a hessian/jute backing and the colour wicks up through the pile to the tips.

Cure is to apply a debrown product agitate pile to remove browning and then get it bone dry asap as this will prevent any further wicking action to occur.

The best prevention is not to overwet and to get the carpet dry to prevent wicking

martin19842

  • Posts: 1945
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2005, 10:55:37 am »
hi there,

browning, or wicking will also occur on bitumous backed carpet tiles.,  ans can be pretty horrific.

an example that i saw was where the carpets had been cleaned on a regular maintenance program, and then on the next clean,  they were cleaned on the weekend, fine monday morning,  but by monday afternoon, horrific black patches started to appear. the guys sorted it in the end

this is why the low moisture cleaning systems are now extremely popular, as the results are sometimes proving to be better.


Gavin Reardon

  • Posts: 464
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2005, 10:57:04 am »
Hi

In the past when I have had to remove browning from carpets that have been flooded etc and I have used Alltec's De-Brown no.1

This is to be used for the removal of cellulosic browning from wicking by Jute backed  carpets. It is best to use cold water when using this Product.

Have had great results with it  :)

Regards

Gavin
Gavin Reardon IICRC / NCCA

www.ace-cleaning.co.uk

Gavin Reardon

  • Posts: 464
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2005, 11:05:14 am »
Hi

Had the cc removed spots or stains with a solvant based remover during the carpet cleaning??

Sounds like!

If so this has melted the bitch on the backing of the carpet tiles  :o  :o

Anyone new out there be carefull went using solvants

 
Gavin Reardon IICRC / NCCA

www.ace-cleaning.co.uk

Gavin Reardon

  • Posts: 464
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2005, 11:06:32 am »
Hi

Had the cc removed spots or stains with a solvant based remover during the carpet cleaning??

Sounds like!

If so this has melted the bitch on the backing of the carpet tiles  :o  :o

Anyone new out there be carefull when using solvants

Regards

Gavin

  
Gavin Reardon IICRC / NCCA

www.ace-cleaning.co.uk

dave401uk

  • Posts: 434
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2005, 11:06:42 am »
Cris, i could be wrong here ::) but it is my understanding, that with the PH levels of m/s and the way in wich they work,there is no need for and acid rinse,

dave
Its never a pass of the wand,just a master stroke.

*paul_moss

  • Posts: 2961
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2005, 11:47:01 am »
Dave if i am correct M/S no.4 has a ph of around 6.4 (  just below neutral)
therefore an scid still needs to be added to the rinse of around 2.5 to 4.5ph to eliminate the browning.
Buy beware on cleaning fabrics such as cotton suites with browning as it is more difficult to remove and can show up again if the fabric has a stain protector added ( but this usually fades when dry)

Paul
Paul Moss  MBICSc
www.mosscleaning.co.uk
REMOVED FOR POSTING OFFENSIVE MATERIAL

Ken Wainwright

  • Posts: 2107
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2005, 11:58:38 am »
What causes browning? Too much water, sometimes too hot water. High pH and alkalinity. Any individually or in combination.

If the carpet is too wet, but you dry it very quickly with blowers, this will not prevent the occurance of browning, it will merely show it sooner  :'(

By using an acidic rinse, this will not cure browning, but combined with Best Practice techniques will prevent it.

Cures mentioned above usually work, but not always :(  Prevention is much better than cure.

Safe and happy cleaning :)
Ken
Veni, vidi vici, Vaxi
I came, I saw, I conquered, I cleaned up!

maclock cleaning

  • Posts: 75
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2005, 12:37:57 pm »
thanks for the replies finding them very interesting......
Newcastle Upon Tyne..........

Dave_Lee

  • Posts: 1728
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2005, 08:03:56 pm »
Why dont you go on an approved course. This should be the first thing done before launching out as a professional carpet cleaner, then you wouldnt have to ask, your question as you would have learnt all about it. Remember the better the foundation the longer and better your business will last, without one you wont get very far.
Dave.
Dave Lee, Owner of Deepclean Services
Chorley Lancs. Est 1980.
"Pay Cheap -You get Cheap - Pay a little more and get something Better."

Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2005, 08:41:37 pm »
Hi Guys


An acid rinse is normally used to bring the fabric'schemical state back to neutral

No 4 is Ph 6.8 there and returns to neatral on drying anyway,  there is no need whtso ever to use and additional acid rinse,on it or the standard product or the heavy duty product, as these also dry neutral,

An acid rinse does not literally mean acid, great care should be taken with both high Ph or very low Ph,

I would suggest a good course,NCCA or IICRC, Or Prochem, Extracta

Best regards Nick

*paul_moss

  • Posts: 2961
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2005, 08:47:40 pm »
Great response to browning and indead PH.
But I wonder does any body Know what ph stands for  ?

Paul
Paul Moss  MBICSc
www.mosscleaning.co.uk
REMOVED FOR POSTING OFFENSIVE MATERIAL

Michel Roberts

  • Posts: 226
Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2005, 08:57:42 pm »
Nick
 
When you say no need to acid rinse the HD product are you refering to solution no 2 for synthetic carpet. As luck would have it I used this today for the first time having got some off of you a few months back and it worked absolutly fantastically, I was concerend about it,s ph value as I could,nt find it on the container and so did do a acid post spray and agitate. For future reference is this generally not required.

Thanks Michel

Re: how to prevent browning????
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2005, 09:02:18 pm »
Hi Paul you asked for it

1) What does the abbreviation pH stand for?

2) How much more acidic is water with pH of 4.5 than water with a PH of 5.5?

See? We don't understand much about pH after all. The answers are "per Hydrion" and "ten times" respectively. Allow me to explain.

Hydrogen in its cation state is known as "hydrion". The pH scale is a logarithmic scale and can also be referred to as a "molar concentration" of hydrion ions. Now you are scratching your head and saying "Huh"? A "mole" in chemical terms is a set quantity of molecules, that quantity being referred to as Avagadro's number. Consider the number 602 with twenty-one zero's trailing it. That's a mole. A "molar concentration" is the number of moles of hydrion ions in a liter of water. Since it works out to be less than one, we can express it as a fraction (groans from the mathematically challenged). When you see a pH value of "X", it really means the molar concentration is 1/10x moles of hydrion for each liter of water. So, if you have a pH of 5.0 that means that for each mole of stuff in the sample you have 1/105, or 0.00001 moles of hydrion. Doesn't sound like a lot, but remember a mole is a really big number. You would think that it contains a lot of hydrion, but it doesn't. One mole or 602,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ions of hydrion works out to weigh only one gram, That means a liter of water at a pH of 5.0 has only ten micrograms or ten millionths of a gram of hydrion ions. A pH of 6.0 indicates a concentration of 0.000001, or one millionth of a gram.

What about a pH of 5.1 you ask? Or 5.2, 5.3, etc? Remember this is a logarithmic scale so it kind of curves its way along, with the difference between 5.0 and 5.1 being greater than the difference between 5.1 and 5.2, and so on. Suffice it to say that it is somewhere in between and the closer it gets to6.0, the fewer it has.

At this point you need to introduce a scientific convention. Scientific conventions are things scientists all agree on so they can communicate better (and I' " bet you thought it was a bunch of nerds with lab coats and pocket protectors taking over a hotel). When a Hydrogen atom is in the hydrion state it can be shown as "H+". When it has an extra ion and therefore is negatively charged it is written as "H-" and is called Hydride. The chemical symbol for Calcium is Ca and when it is in ionic form it will be short two electrons. This will cause it to have a double positive charge and will be written as CA++. Nifty huh?

Maybe here it would be a good idea todiscuss "mass solutions.. as opposed to "molar solutions". (and not he ones I sell) While molar solutions are based on the number of molecules of something in one litre of water, a mass solution measures the weight of the substance dissolved in a liter of water. It is expressed as mg/1 (milligrams per liter) or mmg (micrograms per liter). We will need this definition later so stick it into the back of your head for future reference.

Now back to Ph water below a pH of less than 7.0 is "acidic" and above 7.0 is considered ..b,ase". If you were to distill water to an absolute purity and keep it from dissolving anything - even air, it would have a pH of 7.0. Why? Because water is an ionic compound. As such its chemical bond is not as strong as it would appear.


I'll leave it there for now

Best regards Nick