[NWH]

At the end of the day it sells more systems end of story,if you think any different they`ve sold it to you aswell.

[David Slater]

David, I may be wrong but I think most of British law is case law, (I will have to check with the Mrs). Put very simply if one of your staff had a fatal accident in your vehicle, death caused by the water tank, you will find this will/could become law during the court case.

All of a sudden Ionic’s will have a big waiting list.

I’m sure Ionic know where they stand within the law regarding there clamps.

 

Ask your missus....

If a company sell a product with certain guarantees then it MUST meet that criteria.

If Ionics sell a product on the grounds of safety then it MUST leave them in a "safe" and satisfactory condition.

By allowing the vehicle to leave them able to travel above 30mph (their stated "safe" limit) they will be held jointly and severally responsible for any accident that may ensue.

It is not a defence to state that the operative traveled above 30 mph.

You (as the installer) should have made "ALL REASONABLE EFFORTS" to ensure that the vehicle was incapable of traveling beyond the "safe limits".

By allowing the vehicle to leave you after fitting the system which would gain speeds above 30 mph would leave you open to civil and legal claims for damages if it could be proved that the system was sold on it "safety"


I'm sure there will be some very very small print which gives Ionics a "get of of jail free" card ....but is this why you bought the system or not?


Now theres a legal case yet to be argued 


.....So you either bought the system for its safety (which is worth nothing) or you bought the name.


   

[TennetClean]

David mate, you sound alright but you actually dont know what you're talking about.  I personally went through all this in great detail with jason at ionics.

Have a look at euro ncap website.  New cars are only crash tested to for front impact to 40mph, but guess what cars go a lot faster than that.  So why is the standard only 40mph?  You'd have to ask them, but I would guess that over that speed is a bit academic as you probably wouldnt survive the crash no matter how well built the car.

Ionics HAVE NOT reached an 'industry standard'

LOL you should read up before you spout it mate.  The FMVSS-208 is the standard for this type of thing, and ionics have reached it.  They have a certificate from an independant research body to prove it.

That standard does not require vehicles certified to it to be limited to 30mph.

Sorry mate but you sound a little jumped-up, and not in the least bit clued-up.  Why dont you speak to ionics about it, like I have, then you might be in a position to make a judgement.  As it is you simply don't know what you're talking about.

[windowwashers]

At the end of the day it sells more systems end of story,if you think any different they`ve sold it to you aswell.

I agree with you on this point, although there systems do look rather nice I have to say

[L.J.Thorpe]

i agree with nat
except i dont think you should all club together
i think ionics shuld fund it
i would want the money in advance so that i can get an identical system up and running
(and a little bit for my trouble of course)
i think about 50 mph would be ok
you would need to take it to an airfield to get it up to 70 anyway :
would also be interesting to see how other things like hose reels,poles,batteries etc behave in a crash
there is also no bulkhead in mine just a drivers gaurd
that could be interesting

[David Slater]

David mate, you sound alright but you actually dont know what you're talking about.  I personally went through all this in great detail with jason at ionics.

Have a look at euro ncap website.  New cars are only crash tested to for front impact to 40mph, but guess what cars go a lot faster than that.  So why is the standard only 40mph?  You'd have to ask them, but I would guess that over that speed is a bit academic as you probably wouldnt survive the crash no matter how well built the car.

Ionics HAVE NOT reached an 'industry standard'

LOL you should read up before you spout it mate.  The FMVSS-208 is the standard for this type of thing, and ionics have reached it.  They have a certificate from an independant research body to prove it.

That standard does not require vehicles certified to it to be limited to 30mph.

Sorry mate but you sound a little jumped-up, and not in the least bit clued-up.  Why dont you speak to ionics about it, like I have, then you might be in a position to make a judgement.  As it is you simply don't know what you're talking about.

40 mph?

So the 30 mph Ionics claim is wrong?

So what we have then is a system that is tested to what?? 30 mph or 40mph?

Not at all jumped up. I just dont follow exactly what Ionics are selling on this point. They make good systems granted. But a little bit expensive in my book.

Safety? to what speed? to what tolerance?

So you do conceed that the Ionics system is indeed UNSAFE at speeds above 30/40mph?

We're not talking about the vehicle impact though are we? We're talking about "SAFETY" within the vehicle.....so are you suggesting the seatbelts are tested to 40mph? One tonne of weight moving around in the back has very little to do with the tolerances of the vehicle.....unless you are suggesting they are, in which casse the anchor points provided by the vehicle manufacturer are more than adequte as they have also met the Ncap test?

The anchors on an Ionics system are not integral to the vehicle and are not being sold as such. They are being sold as "safety" restraints/harnesses.

I shall wait with baited breath for the first fatal collision and see what defence is put forward by Ionics.....somehow I doubt it will be their "safety system" but expect a get out of jail fee card to be played through their small print 

[TennetClean]

mate, no offense, but you seriously dont have a clue.

You dont understand this at all.  My advice is, dont bother arguing with me, because i don't care, but go away and find out exactly what testing ionics did, what the standard was and what it means in practicality.

Also, why form such a strong opinon about it when you don't understand it?

They make good systems granted. But a little bit expensive in my book.

That has nothing to with safety, but the fact that you felt the need to say it tells a lot about your reason for being opinionated about something you dont understand

[David Slater]

mate, no offense, but you seriously dont have a clue.

You dont understand this at all.  My advice is, dont bother arguing with me, because i don't care, but go away and find out exactly what testing ionics did, what the standard was and what it means in practicality.

Also, why form such a strong opinon about it when you don't understand it?

They make good systems granted. But a little bit expensive in my book.

That has nothing to with safety, but the fact that you felt the need to say it tells a lot about your reason for being opinionated about something you dont understand

Tennet,

Please feel free to correct me -

Ionics sell a system which is tested SAFE to 30 or 40 mph

Beyond that speed the system is.......?

The vehicle the system is fitted to, is able to travel at speeds of......?


 

[TennetClean]

Tennet,

Please feel free to correct me -

Ionics sell a system which is tested SAFE to 30 or 40 mph

Beyond that speed the system is.......?

The vehicle the system is fitted to, is able to travel at speeds of......?

LOL wrong my friend.  There's no such thing as "tested SAFE" to any speed.

As I understand it, they sell a system that complies with the FMVSS-208 standard.  Thats not opinion, that is a fact, it complies with that standard.
To comply with that you need to do prove with testing to 30mph

Even then, I would doubt if ionics or even any car manufacturer would say "This is safe to 30mph..." or whatever.  Its a crash after all, by definition, crashes are not safe and are unpredictable.

As I said, why don't you find out what they are actually saying before you disagree with it.

[David Slater]

Tennet,

Please feel free to correct me -

Ionics sell a system which is tested SAFE to 30 or 40 mph

Beyond that speed the system is.......?

The vehicle the system is fitted to, is able to travel at speeds of......?

LOL wrong my friend.  There's no such thing as "tested SAFE" to any speed.

As I understand it, they sell a system that complies with the FMVSS-208 standard.  Thats not opinion, that is a fact, it complies with that standard.
To comply with that you need to do prove with testing to 30mph

Even then, I would doubt if ionics or even any car manufacturer would say "This is safe to 30mph..." or whatever.  Its a crash after all, by definition, crashes are not safe and are unpredictable.

As I said, why don't you find out what they are actually saying before you disagree with it.

So pretty much as said - tested safe to 30mph.

I  wonder whether my seatbelt (which is also a restraining device) is tested beyond 30 mph...hmmm

You bought an Ionics and good for you.

I just hope you didnt buy it save your life in an accident.......above 30mph of course 


Just a footnote - my car is capable of speeds up to 155mph did you know its against the law for a fitter to fit tyres to my car that are rated below that speed?



hhhmmmm......food for thought.

[TennetClean]

thats what I love about CIU.  You can prove beyond reasonable doubt that white is white, but some numpty will always say its black!

[Clive McDonald]

Good info tenent, it bugs me too when you give info unadorned, and someone says what I think is..... or in my opinion

I think we set sucked into these arguments and i'm no better than anybody else for talking about what i don't understand

[Oakley Windows]

thats what I love about CIU.  You can prove beyond reasonable doubt that white is white, but some numpty will always say its black!

True

I think we set sucked into these arguments and i'm no better than anybody else for talking about what i don't understand

Yes (me too) and yes (me too)

 

[Clive McDonald]

This started with a pic of Olivers new system, and he was very proud. People teased a few details out of him like price and then ridiculed the system as overpriced and unsafe. The debate then moved to knocking Ionics.

This sort of reaction is why so few people share.

[Oakley Windows]

and then ridiculed the system

Happened to me on here as well.

Thats why I dont bother offering anything constructive anymore. Used to and then someone decides its time to have a pop just because theryre bored.

Why bother?

[[GQC] Tim]

I think people have got a point, sure the standard is 30mph which you get the certificate for.

But how many of us travel a fair bit faster then that. Yea usually you brake before an accident, but only if you see it coming. You'd still be safer in an Ionics fitted van then anything else, naturally, but it sure would be interesting to see what happens at 40mph, or 50mph. Because that is realistic, 30mph isn't really in my opinion.

[P®oPole™]

Far too many 'opinions' and 'unjustified conclusions' from people who have very little knowledge of what there talking about.
All systems to a degree do the same thing. However a smart man wouldn't secure a tank with 5 or even 10 ton straps and simply just keep his fingers crossed.

All crash testing is done at 30MPH as standard the FMVSS-208 bolts capable of a restraining an astronomical 640 tonnes of kinetic energy are the best purpose made means of securing a tank available and if the test existed I have no doubt that they would exceed 30mph.

Pro

[Nathanael Jones]

So lets get Thorpe's rig AND an Ionics one,.. drive both of them at a wall at 50mph.

In the interest of fairness I think Ionics should supply one at the same price Thorpe is asking,...

[twt]

just a note
 i once went round a round about a bit fast suddenly the van jolted on the way round and it felt like one of the wheels had fallen off, upon inspection it turned out a 30 litre  barrel had fallen over and slid to the other side of the van. It made me realise how important it is to secure loads my van. In a crash a tank of water will have an unbelievable affect on the vans handling and the impact.

[sair]

In my humble opinion, not that i know anything about fitting systems!

the outreach frame and system is suitable for the job and the brackets would hold out in accident.

i have seen a few that have been in accidents in last 5 years after installation and the brackets do not rip out, i would sooner the brackets than a ratchet strap to the so called ratchet points. 

outreach do have some form of testing done on there brackets via an outside company.