Interested In Advertising? | Contact Us Here
Warning!

 

Welcome to Clean It Up; the UK`s largest cleaning forum with over 34,000 members

 

Please login or register to post and reply to topics.      

 

Forgot your password? Click here

Jonny jones

  • Posts: 387
Casual workers
« on: August 06, 2008, 11:21:06 pm »
hi guys,

won a contract on monday,  they told me i got the job the problem is that they want 3 times the workers i priced for the job and double the hours to get the job done in half the time,

problem i got is i will be paying them cash in hand (naughty)  and because i have to treble the work force i havent got that much in the bank to pay their wages.  theres no point asking the bank their a waste of time.

do you think i was a bit cheeky today when i asked the QS for an advance to cover the wages.


Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: Casual workers
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2008, 12:48:05 am »
Firstly, let me say that this is not personal Johnny.

The idea that you should admit to breaking the law on a public forum such as this is very foolish. Anyone who has been in this business for any length of time knows that at least 70% of the industry operates under the rader in one way or another, unfortunately a lot of clients are also aware of this!

You also have a habit of only supplying limited information, so in answer to your query I have to make a number of assumptiions, I apologise if any are wrong,  but here goes anyway!

When you submitted the quote, the client was obviously happy with price, cleaning schedule, times etc.
The client's insistance on such radical changes as staff numbers, times etc, should in my opinion set the alarm bells ringing, as the changes will affect the cost of completing the work, ie. treble the number of staff, and doubling the hours, I would ask where is the profit? Sit down and work through the figures based on this new requirement before agreeing to start the job, if there is a profit to be made, consider exactly if the profit is worth risking the fines and damage to your personal and business reputation. I would also issue new paperwork in order to take into account the changes in your client's needs.

You mentioned the QS, so I assume that this is a one off clean or builders clean, due to the fact that the building game has one of the highest accident rates and considering the new corp manslaughter regs and other recent regulations your decision to "employ" staff on a cash in hand basis is very high risk.

The building trade is on its knees at the moment, the situation will get worse, the QS in my opinion is trying it on, this is known as contract creep, what in fact he is trying to do is get the work done at the lowest possible price at your expense, he, in my opinion is trying to have you over.

You also mention the lack of help available from the bank, have you got a business plan?

Banks and accountants are a very good source of information, advice and act as a useful yardstick to the likely success of any particular venture.

Regarding your decision to ask the QS for an advance of monies, to cover your wage bill, you have now let the QS know that he is dealing with someone who really is a beginner in the industry, do not be surprised if he takes full advantage of this fact!

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

pdl

  • Posts: 154
Re: Casual workers
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2008, 11:22:28 am »
Very well answered as usal Robert.

Johnny, please consider that most QS people are on an annual bonus where they can show substantials savings on supplier services and raw materials costs to their Directors.

As Robert has mentioned go back and review the clients requirements and renegociate the price.
Never ASSUME, to ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME              Cannock Staffordshire

Helen

Re: Casual workers
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2008, 11:32:40 am »
Robert, I agree with all you say. No offence Johnny, but you really are letting the cleaning industry down badly by operating like this.
As Robert said:
The client liked your quote, then promptly changed the terms?   That quote was then invalid and you should have re-submitted another quote.
As for employing on a cash in hand basis. Robert has already said about the risks involved, not only fines, but at worst jail sentences and closure of business...is it really worth it?
Presumably you do not have a business account as if you have an you have been operating correctly the the bank would probably help you out. So you do not have enough money to pay "cash" wages, which would have to be drawn out of the bank anyway, on an HMRC audit how would you explain that?
As for asking for ££ up front, you left yourself wide open on that one i'm afraid!

BDCS

  • Posts: 4777
Re: Casual workers
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2008, 01:30:58 pm »
I'd have just said when they moved the goal posts that you could'nt do the job on your own and you'd need a subbie and the additional cost would be £xxx.
 Never be afraid to tell a QS or site agent that the job is not as quoted or you have come across un foreseen circumstances and will have to include extras into the bill, I would always try to bring a job in on price but within the rules.

Jonny jones

  • Posts: 387
Re: Casual workers
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2008, 07:06:30 pm »
thank you robert.

ok what you say about putting people on the cards is ok in theory but i know for a fact i would not get any help from no one,  yes i am a new business and i will make mistakes, and as you put it his one is a real booboo, 

i am trying my best hear guys, i had a lot of work allready booked for this week and next week, i had to do something, i am trying to establish my business and its getting harder because of all the comp in my area,

ok what you say does make sense, but how do i tell my guys that i will have to put them on the cards as they only work for me here and there?

thanx jonny

garyj

Re: Casual workers
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2008, 10:44:47 pm »
Not being rude Johnny but have a read through this post then have a look at your website.

Are we talking about the same company  ???

Jonny jones

  • Posts: 387
Re: Casual workers
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2008, 12:04:59 am »
hi gary dont know what you mean? ???

craig b

Re: Casual workers
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2008, 12:26:17 am »
do what you have to do we all take risks....any body that gets somewere takes risks. dont let workers  take risks..like climbing ladders etc...
good luck

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: Casual workers
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2008, 05:18:46 pm »
Jonny,

Everyone in business has competion except for those lucky enough to to come up with something at the cutting edge, or perhaps to be responsible for starting a fad (cabbage patch kids, rubiks cube) or a legal requirement (corgi registration etc).

However, competion should be fair, and on a level playing field, your excuse, that you are a new business, and that you should, perhaps, be given a break because of this is quite frankly pathetic. There is already, far too much of this attitude within the industry, many so called comapanies operate exactly in this way, the client's of these so called cleaning companies are well aware of this fact, and use this to their supposed advantage, by using these sorts of companies to further drive down prices.

Plimsol, the people who publish information on the state of the cleaning industry have published the fact that out of the top 2500 companies 500 of them are in very real danger of failing, if we assume that this assumption can be made across the board for the whole industry, you can see that the outlook does not look good.

So what to do?
Ignore employment law?
Ignore Health & Safety?
Diddle the taxman?

By operating outside the law in anyway, all these sort of companies do is further drive down the price of cleaning making the problem worse, sell your expertise, sell value, sell reliabilty, that is the only way to build business.

Craigs advice, "do what you have to do, we all take risks...." is typical of a great many within the industry, yes, running a business is all about risk, but these risks can be managed, risking peoples lives, or operating your business outside of the law, in my view is not a risk, it is simply illegal, any business that operates in this way, is not a business at all, it is just simply a wide boy trying to make a buck!

Gary's comment, is simply pointing out the fact that your website gives the impression that you know what your doing and that you comply with all current legislation, it, in my opinion is not a wise move to state that you adhere to the legislation, then when push comes to shove, you actually do not comply with the law. If your government contracts ever come to hear that you flout the rules, you will lose those faster than you can say jack robinson!

At the end of the day, you will make the decision, you will probably get away with it this time, but if you keep doing business this way, sooner or later, the S**** will hit the fan, it might be employment law, it might be Health & Safety, or perhaps even HM customs & Revenue will ask you to explain your business dealings. Even if none of these things happen for the next few years, continuing to operate in this way, you will have to break more and more rules in order just to get more business, and if you try to make the changes required in order to comply with the law how are you going to explain the price increases to your existing customer base? So in fact, you will become trapped in a viscious circle, of low pricing, and operating your business illegally!

I have no idea of your set up, but here's a few idea's:

Offer your staff the work as overtime.
Agency staff.
Strike up a partnership with another firm in the area, use their staff, pay their invoice when due.

The above assumes that you take due care and dilligence regarding training, insurance etc.

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

craig b

Re: Casual workers
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2008, 08:45:21 pm »
every body in all aspects of business at some stage take risks...
its a quick fix ...
you could go to your local  dhss office ...speak to someone about taking some long term unemployed on (jobseeker) you can get paid up to £75.00 a week for doing it..
and they still get ther benfits...its  for 16 weeks it will give you a bit of time to get along term solution...
you might get good workers who you could take on...



kelly acs

  • Posts: 84
Re: Casual workers
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2008, 11:03:33 am »
I have a similar problem with a caravan cleaning problem. At first the cleans were three days a week but now at peak season we are only there once a week as in the summer holidays people take full week or fornight breaks there instead of four day breaks.

This has left me in a sticky situatin as I need more cleaners but for less hours. I do not have enough work to make everyone's hours up to sixteen. What other option is there but to pay cash in hand as this is not something I want to do. ???
it's a dirty job but someones gotta do it!

cml

  • Posts: 181
Re: Casual workers
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2008, 12:00:00 pm »
You have been given some good advice by others on here. 

In addition try talking  to your Job Centre about the possibilities of staff on a work trial basis.  This may aid your short term cash flow and also introduce someone back into work.  But this is only a short term measure.

You've also got to consider the msg you are sending out to your staff.  If it is seen that you cut corners and are not operating within the law you are going to be walking a tight rope with the fear of one of them 'blowing the whistle' or cutting corners on the quality of their work.  Poor quality does not bring in new business.  As you are aware there is tough competition so be careful not to get complacent thinking that there is enough business to go around and you will not be found out.  Grapevines are a very strong tool of advertising and can seriously damage your business.  This can only bring about more trouble than  the contract is worth and ruin a business that you have invested time and money getting started.

Start as you may aim to go on with quality and honesty and a high regard for good business ethics.