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davetherave

  • Posts: 172
baffled?
« on: June 28, 2008, 11:15:04 pm »
I've been trying to research wfp window cleaning and i've seen people going on about baffled tanks. What is the difference between a baffled tank and a unbaffled one?

Re: baffled?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2008, 11:18:09 pm »
I've been trying to research wfp window cleaning and i've seen people going on about baffled tanks. What is the difference between a baffled tank and a unbaffled one?
baffled tank stops the water moving freely, unbaffled tank = water can move freely

I will draw a quick pic so you can see what I mean..


Ian

Re: baffled?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2008, 11:25:44 pm »
Hope this helps a little, if you need any more info let me know and I will do my best to help.

Ian

SherwoodCleaningSe

  • Posts: 2368
Re: baffled?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2008, 12:03:54 am »
If you have a tank in a van it needs to be baffled otherwise you would be likely to have an accident as the water throws the van off balance. More of a problem when you are half full. A static tank doesn't need them.

Simon.

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: baffled?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2008, 12:19:33 am »
Hope this helps a little, if you need any more info let me know and I will do my best to help.

Ian
The picture shown is not a properly baffled tank,a propery baffled tank should look more like a box completley full of honeycomb sections from top to bottom.

easycleaner

  • Posts: 244
Re: baffled?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2008, 12:32:31 am »
Hi, I got mine fitted by purefreedom. Go for a baffled in a van for safety reasons only!!!!!! Its a must. £50 more or a life in a wheel chair if a un baffled tank chucks your van of the road.
Mart

Re: baffled?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2008, 12:38:43 am »
Hope this helps a little, if you need any more info let me know and I will do my best to help.

Ian
The picture shown is not a properly baffled tank,a propery baffled tank should look more like a box completley full of honeycomb sections from top to bottom.
It was a quick pic NWH, and the second tank is baffled it stops the force of the water ::) you can get a lot better baffled taNKS i KNOW BUT i DID THIS SO THE GUY COULD UNDERSTAND DONT CONFUSE HIM.

Re: baffled?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2008, 01:27:57 am »
The baffles in the tank are there to prevent the water from rushing from one part of the tank to the other under cornering or braking/acceleration forces.

The diagram isn't wonderful. It only mentions cornering forces. The same is true for braking and acceleration forces. In a real tank, the baffles go both lengthways and sideways. NWH's description of the internals is perfect.

The red dot is roughly where the centre of gravity would be. You'll notice that in the unbaffled tank, it's considerably shifted whereas for the baffled tank it hardly moves at all.



The problem is that the centre of gravity moves around. If you remember your high school physics, the centre of gravity always wants to move in a straight line. This is Newton's first law. When the centre of gravity keeps on moving, the whole vehicle has to wobble in order for the centre of gravity to continue in the same line!

It might seem like quite a small effect, but as the water sloshes about, it can set up very dangerous wobbles very quickly. If you are driving close to the edge (for example, if you have to swerve violently to miss a child running into the road), this sloshing can send you over the edge without any warning.

Of course, even under normal gentle driving, you are constantly changing speed and direction. If you had an unbaffled tank the C of G would be moving forwards and backwards as well as side to side. The effect would be to change the speed of the vehicle as well as make it wobble from side to side.

Here's a similar situation that you will easily understand - imagine carrying a tray with lots of pint glasses each filled nearly to the brim with your favourite beer. You could probably balance it on one hand like a waiter in a fancy restaurant and walk round with it. Now imagine trying to do the same if you had a washing up bowl full of beer. You couldn't carry it without spilling lots of the precious stuff.

The physics is the same.

You will easily understand that all liquid-carrying tankers have the same problems. What may not be so obvious is that bulk powder carriers also have similar problems as powders can behave very much like liquids under certain conditions. Also trucks carrying meat carcasses have to be driven very carefully as the carcasses can swing from side to side as well as back and forth and cause a very similar rocking effect - although not as pronounced.

Yeah! Physics is FUN!



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
P.S. You'll notice that there are small gaps at the bottom of the baffles. They are
large enough to allow the sections to all drain properly as the tank slowly empties, but small enough so the liquid cannot rush from one section to another quickly.


davetherave

  • Posts: 172
Re: baffled?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2008, 08:13:20 am »
cheers guys, i understand now.  ;)

jaykie

Re: baffled?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2008, 08:44:54 am »
This forum is so helpful to people i wouldnt no half of what i know without it,

Chris

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: baffled?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2008, 09:21:45 pm »
Hope this helps a little, if you need any more info let me know and I will do my best to help.

Ian
The picture shown is not a properly baffled tank,a propery baffled tank should look more like a box completley full of honeycomb sections from top to bottom.
It was a quick pic NWH, and the second tank is baffled it stops the force of the water ::) you can get a lot better baffled taNKS i KNOW BUT i DID THIS SO THE GUY COULD UNDERSTAND DONT CONFUSE HIM.
Your tank has no impact on stopping the force of water moving forward Ian at all,in those tanks the water sloshes about like a joke.Do an emergency stop with your tank and when you eventually come to a stop you`ll think your in a boat,i should know i`ve both type of tanks and would never ever have that tank again.

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: baffled?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2008, 09:35:51 pm »
anyone tried the diy land drain pipe method of baffling a tank ???

NWH

  • Posts: 16952
Re: baffled?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2008, 10:05:29 pm »
anyone tried the diy land drain pipe method of baffling a tank ???
That`s 1 of the best ways to baffel a tank if not the best,but you try securing the pipeing after the tanks been made it`s near on impossible,this process has to be done prior to welding the tank.Omnipole use this method and the same method has been applied when making my tank the run of the mill tanks that you buy are not correctly baffeld and are not designed to hold water during transit this bloke Neil will explain all to you over the phone,it`s a real eyeopener www.plasticwatertanks.co.uk

Re: baffled?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2008, 10:11:33 pm »
anyone tried the diy land drain pipe method of baffling a tank ???

Can you explain the method?

Just found this picture on the website NWH mentioned. It shows the internal baffles put in place prior to welding the top of the tank in place.


L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: baffled?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2008, 10:15:00 pm »
i will be using an ibc  ;D ......dont all start cos i dont care
wally you cut lengths of land drain pipe (semirigid with small holes along length)
insert into tank and keep going until tank is packed tight ;)

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: baffled?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2008, 10:31:57 pm »
wally that was nwh who put website up
iam talking ibc
NOT custom tanks ;D

Re: baffled?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2008, 10:38:33 pm »
Hey, L.J. I really don't want to rain on your parade, but the phrase that comes into my mind is:

"It seems like a really good idea if you don't think about it too much."

Look, you can't possibly calculate the results of doing something like this. There are just too many variables.

All you can do is what Einstein called a gedanken experiment. That's just a fancy way of saying thinking it through carefully taking as much into account as possible.

Imagine carrying a washing up bowl full of water down to the bottom of the garden to water the lettuce. Yes, you're going to be sloshing water all over the place - and that's like an unbaffled tank.

Now, imagine that someone has a great idea and cuts up lengths of 2" water pipe and  sticks them in the washing up bowl saying they'll act like baffles and make sure you don't spill any water. That's like your land drain pipe idea.

Run a mental video of what might happen. You'll probably notice that there isn't actually very much difference between the two scenarios.

There's still a continuous free water surface that flows around the pipes - and it's this surface that will cause the problems. You see, baffles work by breaking up a large water surface into smaller surfaces. Do a search of the free surface effect and you'll find out all about it.

That's my analysis - and it's no more than a mental video that I've run. Yours might be quite different.

Personally, I wouldn't do it.

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: baffled?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2008, 10:44:33 pm »
fair comment :)
BUT i did ask if anyone had actually tried it ;D
no offence

L.J.Thorpe

  • Posts: 2056
Re: baffled?
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2008, 10:52:06 pm »
just to add that you seem to have missed the point of how pipe baffle is supposed to work :(
pipe is about 6 ins in diameter(can be up to whatever size fits through lid of tank)
lengths are cut to height of tank
upend tank and insert pipes so they fill tank......tight
lay tank flat
tank is now filled with vertical pipes

Re: baffled?
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2008, 10:54:54 pm »
fair comment :)
BUT i did ask if anyone had actually tried it ;D
no offence

Great. And I'm absolutley sure that there's most certainly no offence intended on either side.

As I said, I've only done it as a gedanken experiment, so I have no idea if I'm right or not.

I don't want to be smarty pants about this, but I've done a lot of this stuff in my life and I have a really good "feel" for physical sciences (as well as a degree in it).

All I'm wanting to do is to share my feelings, experience and thoughts.

I can easily imagine that someone might come up with this as "a good idea", but it isn't actually that good because they don't understand the free surface effect.

I hope we're all friends just sharing whatever we can.

And that means questions as well as answers.

And as jaykie observed - we can all learn stuff from other people's Q&As.