[Clive McDonald]

Your own ideas were very good David, many I hadn't heard of before. You do have the big advantage of already being part of a successfull team.

Having said that a certain amount of humilation/humility on your part will be very necessary.

I accept what Mattb says, but what i find interesting is because of your previous if we can fast track you or not. I think we can because you are receptive to ideas.

usp/usb. I'm not going to waste too much time on this you either get it or you don't. You generally choose what you believe are the top two or three.To protect and serve is a mission statement by the way. Dyson broke the mould because he used a design change (bagless) as a usp (unique selling propostion) when strictly speaking this is not a benefit to the customer.

Some of your ideas are bolder than mine and out of my range. I use my home phone number only and this goes through call divert onto my mobile.

I can email you  a couple of photos of a hot system that your dad will grasp easily. Be very wary of the other hot advice, but with a couple of pics your dad can make his own mind up.

If you go on the course you'll buy an ionics system.


Do you live in a house with a garden? I ask because this has a bearing on what set up you get. What I have is 1000l ibc behind my shed (but could be in the garage), fed by a 300gpd roman(plus DI) and a booster pump. There is a submersible pump in the IBC that takes the water via a thick transfer hose to my 650l van tank.

On the van all I have is a tank, a pump box (varistream and pump), a gas heater, and a reel.

The best pole to get is a 17'xtel glass fibre with a vikan mono with fan jets.

You can make your own decisions on these things, but what I have specced will cost about £3000. So you have £7000 left to spend on a van and all the other things. Even a roof rack costs £200.

Probably the first thing you need to get work is a leaflet. A good one will have a smiling picture of you in your uniform plus signwritten van, but you don't have any of these things yet.I had 10,000 a5 full colour both sides for £130.

Do you have a leaflet for your existing business? Molly maid do a sort of pamphlet which looks good. There is also A6 card.

I think you have to decide on a name.

[David Slater]

Maybe Im taking something for granted here, but I certainly wasnt talking about beer money boys and the like.

I 'think' I give a very good service in my job, and yes it does take a particular type of person to be self-employed (maybe I was taking that for granted too) but to me it isnt hard/difficult and nor does it need to be overly analysed, its down to the individual and needs to be kept fairly simple. Thinking about work doesnt get the work done, doing the work does; after that its generally a self-fulling state of affairs that you'll find yourself in.

As for difficulties employing staff, that isnt something unique to our work, therefore its irrelevant to this particular thread, if you read the orignal post.

MATT

Matt,

I dont think what you're saying holds water.

If I was to just 'get out there and do it' and wait for the business to grow you would end up limiting yourself the busier you got. You would reach a stage where (in between being a busy w/c) you would need to find time build systems that would take some of that workload off your back and 'retrain' customers in how you are going to be working in future ....why not do it before you start?

Surely finding ways for people to pay you rather than you going and getting the money increases you efficiency and leaves you more time to canvas/paperwork/get more work done?

Thinking of different ways to use technology that can help reduce your workload (George for instance) is a perfect example - I bet it would be a right old chore sitting down going through your book updating George with 500 names, addresses, account outstandings not to mention getting yourself (and anyone in your company) used to working with the new system.

People tend to be creatures of habit (and I'm as guilty of that as the next man) - Start as you mean to go on is my philosophy.

Do I want to be a window cleaner? NO!

Do I want a large profitable business cleaning windows? YES!

[L.J.Thorpe]

Discount
how the hell is that set up costing 3k
i dont know how much the gas heater is but 3k
as for the rest of it
like matt says just do it
christ if i can  anyone can

[Paul Coleman]

Well I do Ewan.

The latest marketing thinking has to do with experience. (this is what the sainsbury's and marks and spencer adverts are based on).
Starbucks do not sell coffee they sell the experience of drinking it in the ambience of their establishment and clientel.

Harley Davidson do not sell motor bikes they sell a dream.

These are the best known examples but there are hundreds of others and it's the reason why a high end hairdressers can thrive when a cheap and cheerfull barbers shop may struggle.

To the degree that using my services makes customers somehow superior to the neighbours, while at the same time part of their community, and that the attractiveness of their home will be enhanced by me on an ongoing basis, i like to encourage this experience approach.Uniforms and a smart signwritten van help with this.

Much as I enjoy giving you tips on business basics Ewan try and stick to the proposed biz plan.Disagree, or suggest improvements to that. I am sure that David will have his own ideas, not necessarily the same as ours.I do have real uniqueness, based on the dyson model, and the experience factor but that's not what this is about.

I believe that the key point of your post is about selling dreams.  For some reason that always appears to work better.  It's not always so easy to do with a more down to earth such as window cleaning but it can be done.  I realise that I have even worded part of my self designed leaflet to cater for this part of human nature.  Part of the wording informs the would be customer that they need never have the difficulty of seeking a new window cleaner in the future.  For some people having that level of reliability along with a quality service is a dream.  I know most people probably don't give a hoot who cleans their windows but for many customers, knowing that they can trust their window cleaner is of paramount importance.

[windowwashers]

David I would say got for it,

reading some of the posts I see so many falls in what people are writting it is untrue, some you tell tell straight away they are new to this business other not so, I do think this post is Fantastic as anyone new or old can learn.

Just choose what you do take from it carefully as some of it is wrong IMO

Good luck in what ever you do it is a bumpy road but with good tyres it can work well 


Ian

[Moderator David@stives]

Phase Two

So now all you need is...

A van (signwritten, with a roofrack to take ladders and step ladders, a split charge relay)
A system- cleantech if you are doing it yourself
A leaflet
A website
A business plan with usp and mission statement
A name (your own) and some uniforms/workwear
Also some customers would be nice.....

You need to get on with it. It doesn't matter if you get some of it, or even quite a lot of it wrong, what is needed is action,

What's the budget?

WOW!! some very interesting reading.

Total investment: 10k (self funded)

I dont want to go into the 'ins and outs' of my model. Its incredibly boring! For the guys that havent done a model, its just a series of numbers, breakdowns, breakeven points, costs, return on investment figures and so on..
Chances are, you've already done one, and didnt even realise you were doing it!

I have already started to build systems into my model which may at first be redundant or appear frivolous for a start up -

On top of your list, I have added

1. Freephone number
2. P.O. Box number
3. Freepost account (get the money in quicker?) handy for future canvassing?
4. Mass Text System - I need to look into this further. My dentist uses this system. It automatically sends a text 48 hours then 24 hours before your appointment. He says its cut his 'no show' rate by 80% !!
5. Basic training (2 days with BWCA - 1day wfp, 1 day trad)
6. CRB checks (could be a handy usp/upb?)
7. VAT registration - to be confirmed by accountant whether its worthwhile at this stage.

My dad is a retired aerospace engineer and my uncle works for a small firm specialising in motorhome conversion/repairs. I have spoken to both of them and they had look at the DIY site. Their exact words - is that it? ...so I'll be going down the hot water, van mount self build route. I know, its very handy to have family sometimes!

USP/ UPB Now this is interesting. In my book, a USP (its literal meaning) wouldnt count for most of what has been mentioned. The first bank that did online banking would be a USP. It was 'unique'. Pilkington self clean glass - again, a true USP.

"M&M's dont melt in your hand but in your mouth" would be considered a 'strap line', 'Tag line' or 'memorable message'...."A Mars a day helps you work rest and play" would also be a good example. The American Police force - "To Protect and Serve" is also a good example. They get the message across the company want to portray even if that message isnt strictly true. How long could you hold an M&M before it eventually WOULD melt in your hand? Do the police really protect you? Why are people still being murdered/robbed? How exactly does a Mars bar help you 'rest'?...you get the idea.

UPB seems more accurate for this discussion. wfp is neither unique to me or my company. I need to find 'perceived benefits' to use over my competition.

Heres a rough list I'm playing with at the moment for flyers/leaflets/website -

1. Hot wfp - the very latest technology blah blah blah..
2. wfp equipment - Your home will be cleaned using equipment designed for office blocks and commercial clients. You will get the same outstanding results from the same equipment we use for our commercial clients. We dont use a 'lesser model' to clean your home. You are just as important blah blah blah..
3. CRB checks - we take your security just as seriously as you do blah blah
4. H&S wfp - Apart from its outstanding results, we made this investment for your safety and that of your home. Your home is the largest purchase you'll ever make. We respect that and have blah blah blah..
5. Payment Options - For your convenience, we have several options for payment: Paypal, BACS, Cheque (Freepost), Nochex if you would like to pay using another blah blah blah...
6. Safe Contractor - after further reading, I have decided to go with this. I think it could be a handy selling tool. Has lots of connotations for trust, respectability, etc. even for domestic customers that dont require it, I think they may be reassured by it.... It also gives an air of size beyond what I am.
7. Staff training - Each member of the team has undergone rigorous training to ensure safe use of the equipment and to ensure you get a professional finish. We constantly strive to improve blah blah blah..
8. Public Liability - As you would expect from our company, we take our responsibilities very seriously blah blah blah..
9. Risk Assessment - more for commercial, but worth mentioning in more detail I feel.
10. H&S staff - We value every member of our team and their safety is paramount blah blah blah..
 
As you can see, there is nothing truly 'unique' in my list. It is more 'blowing my own trumpet' and theres no law against that! If the competition choose not to mention these things then thats up to them I suppose. No doubt other w/c will see it and think - He's not offering anything more than me!...but I told them and you didnt

Business Name - Ooohhh, this is a hard one! I've got all sorts floating around. I just keep scribbling them down and then leave it for an hour or two then have another look at it. Here smoe words I've gathered up -

H20 (designer could have a filed day with that)
Aqua
Pure/Pura
Shine
Gleem
Morgan Slater (think thats obvious!)
Bright
Clean
...You get the idea.

I think Wally came up with something fabulous. Its short, to the point, VERY memorable! and the message is clear. I presume he is mainly domestic? His name has a homely warm feel to it, he's a member of the community - just perfect for a local market.
I've seen bigger firms make a complete hash of this and they spent millions !!


Flyers/leaflets - I've seen Wally's flyer and jaykie's (I think) is there any more floating about that I have overlooked?

Yes but can you clean the windows, thats all most customers want to know.

Its window cleaning not rocket science

[xxmattyxx]

If I was to just 'get out there and do it' and wait for the business to grow you would end up limiting yourself the busier you got. You would reach a stage where (in between being a busy w/c) you would need to find time build systems that would take some of that workload off your back and 'retrain' customers in how you are going to be working in future ...why not do it before you start?

One very simple reason, because when you start you won't have a clue, and its only after youve learnt something that you'll be able to start gearing that particular part of your business correctly; and so it'll go on for most aspects in a business that need tweaking.  Theres no way on this earth Id fork out and gear up for every eventuality from the word go, you'd have to be either insane or have very deep pockets; maybe both, and that would be very dangerous indeed.

Also, I didnt say 'just get out there and wait'

Yes but can you clean the windows, thats all most customers want to know.

Its window cleaning not rocket science

Precisely



Matt

[Clive McDonald]

Lj Thorpe,
the gas heater costs £300, I estimated the rest but think it's about right.(I forgot to mention a leisure battery) If he gives cleantech a shopping list they can give him a price. Alex at gardiners can also give him a price.
Cheapness isn't always they key though, both Alex and Mike can be trusted and will get him out of a hole if he gets into one.

Remember Davo? Davo anyone? all those biz threads that led nowhere? I'm convinced this bloke can do it, and I might learn a thing or two watching him.If he does it better and a bit quicker than me will I be jealous? A bit.

But he's going to have to go some....

The truth is i've got to a certain point and I'm stuck. Some of his ideas I have never heard of before- and i'm a guy who knows everything- so what else has he got?

Dave st Ives, you're a really nice bloke, well respected and have a great business. But it's taken you years longer than it should have done to get where you are.This is true of many who post on this forum.

[David Slater]

Your own ideas were very good David, many I hadn't heard of before. You do have the big advantage of already being part of a successfull team.

Having said that a certain amount of humilation/humility on your part will be very necessary.

I accept what Mattb says, but what i find interesting is because of your previous if we can fast track you or not. I think we can because you are receptive to ideas.

usp/usb. I'm not going to waste too much time on this you either get it or you don't. You generally choose what you believe are the top two or three.To protect and serve is a mission statement by the way. Dyson broke the mould because he used a design change (bagless) as a usp (unique selling propostion) when strictly speaking this is not a benefit to the customer.

Some of your ideas are bolder than mine and out of my range. I use my home phone number only and this goes through call divert onto my mobile.

I can email you  a couple of photos of a hot system that your dad will grasp easily. Be very wary of the other hot advice, but with a couple of pics your dad can make his own mind up.

If you go on the course you'll buy an ionics system.


Do you live in a house with a garden? I ask because this has a bearing on what set up you get. What I have is 1000l ibc behind my shed (but could be in the garage), fed by a 300gpd roman(plus DI) and a booster pump. There is a submersible pump in the IBC that takes the water via a thick transfer hose to my 650l van tank.

On the van all I have is a tank, a pump box (varistream and pump), a gas heater, and a reel.

The best pole to get is a 17'xtel glass fibre with a vikan mono with fan jets.

You can make your own decisions on these things, but what I have specced will cost about £3000. So you have £7000 left to spend on a van and all the other things. Even a roof rack costs £200.

Probably the first thing you need to get work is a leaflet. A good one will have a smiling picture of you in your uniform plus signwritten van, but you don't have any of these things yet.I had 10,000 a5 full colour both sides for £130.

Do you have a leaflet for your existing business? Molly maid do a sort of pamphlet which looks good. There is also A6 card.

I think you have to decide on a name.

In 'real life' I'm the nicest most polite person you could wish to meet 

The Freephone number works in exactly the same way! you just divert it to your mobile or whatever number you choose. It will even play a tune and give customers an option list spoken by a professional - Press 1 for sales Press 2 for accounts etc.. ranges from £15 - £60 a month

P.O box is a couple of hundred a year and about £150 for Freepost

Who would you suggest for the training side? I want to get a feel for the equipment....I will not be buying ionics! 

I live in a house with a large garden so no trouble for storage (although I dont have a shed or garage) what about winter months? I've been reading up on freezing in the winter? worth getting a shed maybe?

I read you other post and was edging towards a larger tank in the van (maybe 800-1000Ltr) Obviously it doesnt have to be full from the outset, but it has capacity for growth. Thoughts?

Leaflets - I'm thinking of getting around this issue by using iStockphoto or a similar stock photo website. They can always be updated to incorporate uniforms (and my ugly mug) at a later date. As long as the basic 'theme' is retained I should be fine I think.

We dont currently use leaflets (very poor take up rates) She uses a very glossy A4 laminate magazine style pamphlet (a bit pricey but good for 'face to face' - NOT a mailshot).... We use a single loose sheet inside the final page for customer info (and it normally means she can bring the pack away for use on another customer).

I'd really appreciate those pictures.

slater445@googlemail.com

If its not a rude question, whats your name?

[L.J.Thorpe]

clive i can do that set up for half that
two thirds even with new gear
JUST DO IT
its window cleaning
if you need to analyse it this much before you do it
THEN MAYBE YOU AINT CUT OUT FOR IT
if the glass is clean and the customer pays ....job done
all the other stuff fixes itself,unless you are a complete kretin
get out there and figure it out yourself

[xxmattyxx]

Who would you suggest for the training side?

To start with, in all honesty, a ladder, a bucket, a roof-rack, a squeegee, a mop, scrim, step-ladder, scraper-blade, GG4, TFR and stamina.

Matt

[David Slater]

If I was to just 'get out there and do it' and wait for the business to grow you would end up limiting yourself the busier you got. You would reach a stage where (in between being a busy w/c) you would need to find time build systems that would take some of that workload off your back and 'retrain' customers in how you are going to be working in future ...why not do it before you start?

One very simple reason, because when you start you won't have a clue, and its only after youve learnt something that you'll be able to start gearing that particular part of your business correctly; and so it'll go on for most aspects in a business that need tweaking.  Theres no way on this earth Id fork out and gear up for every eventuality from the word go, you'd have to be either insane or have very deep pockets; maybe both, and that would be very dangerous indeed.

Also, I didnt say 'just get out there and wait'

Yes but can you clean the windows, thats all most customers want to know.

Its window cleaning not rocket science

Precisely



Matt

Thats true Matt,

"All the gear and no idea" was a phrase my dad used a lot.

I dont know whether I've just not been able to get my message across properly or whether you're reading it wrong.

I am not for one moment suggesting I will go out and buy an Ionics Thermo and all the poles etc..

Some of the ideas may seem grand (or more likely I've wrapped them up in jargon and they come across as grand - I apologise) but they're very simple. The George system, The Freephone, The P.O. Box were all ideas I found on this site! (the Freepost was mine  ).

I've just mixed them up a little bit and come out with something that I'd like input on. Not for one moment have I (or would I) tell you guys how to suck eggs. I have asked questions and got fantastic replies. I do tend to just hang around quietly in the background most of the time because I've been reading the boards going back two years!! Research costs nothing  I know nothing annoys more than people asking questions that have been asked a million times before!

So yes, I agree I need to learn how to trad and wfp but I still feel it will be prudent to start these systems from the get go. They are relatively cheap and apart from the George system all are rented on a monthly/annual basis for very little money.

[L.J.Thorpe]

Who would you suggest for the training side?

To start with, in all honesty, a ladder, a bucket, a roof-rack, a squeegee, a mop, scrim, step-ladder, scraper-blade, GG4, TFR and stamina.

Matt

well said that man

[Paul Coleman]

If I was to just 'get out there and do it' and wait for the business to grow you would end up limiting yourself the busier you got. You would reach a stage where (in between being a busy w/c) you would need to find time build systems that would take some of that workload off your back and 'retrain' customers in how you are going to be working in future ...why not do it before you start?

One very simple reason, because when you start you won't have a clue, and its only after youve learnt something that you'll be able to start gearing that particular part of your business correctly; and so it'll go on for most aspects in a business that need tweaking.  Theres no way on this earth Id fork out and gear up for every eventuality from the word go, you'd have to be either insane or have very deep pockets; maybe both, and that would be very dangerous indeed.

Also, I didnt say 'just get out there and wait'

Yes but can you clean the windows, thats all most customers want to know.

Its window cleaning not rocket science

Precisely



Matt

Thats true Matt,

"All the gear and no idea" was a phrase my dad used a lot.

My dad's favourite was "Cut the cackle. Use the tackle"   

[Moderator David@stives]

Discount

Do you know about my business ?

For the first few years all my spare money went into doing my house up, as soon as I got serious my business growth was at least 60% a year.

Just let me know how far you get in ten years.

There are a few window cleaners local to me and I would confidently say my business turnover far exceeds anyone within a 20 mile radius.

In this day and age with wfp anyone can make a fortune , remember ts not always been like that, when i started we didnt have these ready made forums etc, my business started with a bucket and sponge and no prior knowledge of window cleaning.

You would be amazed at some of the knowledge i have gained over theyears and you wont get it off any forum.

Also let me know when you have picked up all the landmark buildings in your area, ie M&S, the largest hotels factorys etc , you dont pick them up over night, you usually have to wait until someone trips up especially in sunny Cornwall.

[xxmattyxx]

My dad's favourite was "Cut the cackle. Use the tackle"   

I had a girlfriend used to say 

[L.J.Thorpe]

nice post dave
 

[Clive McDonald]

"as soon as I got serious my business growth was at least 60% per year" Well he's serious now, and so am I. If you think about it basicaly you agree with me.

I haven't got commercial knowledge, you do, so what steps does he need to take?

[David Slater]

Phase Two

So now all you need is...

A van (signwritten, with a roofrack to take ladders and step ladders, a split charge relay)
A system- cleantech if you are doing it yourself
A leaflet
A website
A business plan with usp and mission statement
A name (your own) and some uniforms/workwear
Also some customers would be nice.....

You need to get on with it. It doesn't matter if you get some of it, or even quite a lot of it wrong, what is needed is action,

What's the budget?

WOW!! some very interesting reading.

Total investment: 10k (self funded)

I dont want to go into the 'ins and outs' of my model. Its incredibly boring! For the guys that havent done a model, its just a series of numbers, breakdowns, breakeven points, costs, return on investment figures and so on..
Chances are, you've already done one, and didnt even realise you were doing it!

I have already started to build systems into my model which may at first be redundant or appear frivolous for a start up -

On top of your list, I have added

1. Freephone number
2. P.O. Box number
3. Freepost account (get the money in quicker?) handy for future canvassing?
4. Mass Text System - I need to look into this further. My dentist uses this system. It automatically sends a text 48 hours then 24 hours before your appointment. He says its cut his 'no show' rate by 80% !!
5. Basic training (2 days with BWCA - 1day wfp, 1 day trad)
6. CRB checks (could be a handy usp/upb?)
7. VAT registration - to be confirmed by accountant whether its worthwhile at this stage.

My dad is a retired aerospace engineer and my uncle works for a small firm specialising in motorhome conversion/repairs. I have spoken to both of them and they had look at the DIY site. Their exact words - is that it? ...so I'll be going down the hot water, van mount self build route. I know, its very handy to have family sometimes!

USP/ UPB Now this is interesting. In my book, a USP (its literal meaning) wouldnt count for most of what has been mentioned. The first bank that did online banking would be a USP. It was 'unique'. Pilkington self clean glass - again, a true USP.

"M&M's dont melt in your hand but in your mouth" would be considered a 'strap line', 'Tag line' or 'memorable message'...."A Mars a day helps you work rest and play" would also be a good example. The American Police force - "To Protect and Serve" is also a good example. They get the message across the company want to portray even if that message isnt strictly true. How long could you hold an M&M before it eventually WOULD melt in your hand? Do the police really protect you? Why are people still being murdered/robbed? How exactly does a Mars bar help you 'rest'?...you get the idea.

UPB seems more accurate for this discussion. wfp is neither unique to me or my company. I need to find 'perceived benefits' to use over my competition.

Heres a rough list I'm playing with at the moment for flyers/leaflets/website -

1. Hot wfp - the very latest technology blah blah blah..
2. wfp equipment - Your home will be cleaned using equipment designed for office blocks and commercial clients. You will get the same outstanding results from the same equipment we use for our commercial clients. We dont use a 'lesser model' to clean your home. You are just as important blah blah blah..
3. CRB checks - we take your security just as seriously as you do blah blah
4. H&S wfp - Apart from its outstanding results, we made this investment for your safety and that of your home. Your home is the largest purchase you'll ever make. We respect that and have blah blah blah..
5. Payment Options - For your convenience, we have several options for payment: Paypal, BACS, Cheque (Freepost), Nochex if you would like to pay using another blah blah blah...
6. Safe Contractor - after further reading, I have decided to go with this. I think it could be a handy selling tool. Has lots of connotations for trust, respectability, etc. even for domestic customers that dont require it, I think they may be reassured by it.... It also gives an air of size beyond what I am.
7. Staff training - Each member of the team has undergone rigorous training to ensure safe use of the equipment and to ensure you get a professional finish. We constantly strive to improve blah blah blah..
8. Public Liability - As you would expect from our company, we take our responsibilities very seriously blah blah blah..
9. Risk Assessment - more for commercial, but worth mentioning in more detail I feel.
10. H&S staff - We value every member of our team and their safety is paramount blah blah blah..
 
As you can see, there is nothing truly 'unique' in my list. It is more 'blowing my own trumpet' and theres no law against that! If the competition choose not to mention these things then thats up to them I suppose. No doubt other w/c will see it and think - He's not offering anything more than me!...but I told them and you didnt

Business Name - Ooohhh, this is a hard one! I've got all sorts floating around. I just keep scribbling them down and then leave it for an hour or two then have another look at it. Here smoe words I've gathered up -

H20 (designer could have a filed day with that)
Aqua
Pure/Pura
Shine
Gleem
Morgan Slater (think thats obvious!)
Bright
Clean
...You get the idea.

I think Wally came up with something fabulous. Its short, to the point, VERY memorable! and the message is clear. I presume he is mainly domestic? His name has a homely warm feel to it, he's a member of the community - just perfect for a local market.
I've seen bigger firms make a complete hash of this and they spent millions !!


Flyers/leaflets - I've seen Wally's flyer and jaykie's (I think) is there any more floating about that I have overlooked?

Yes but can you clean the windows, thats all most customers want to know.

Its window cleaning not rocket science

And you grew your business 60% pa on that? I'm impressed 

Dave,

As you and I know full well, you didnt build you business 60% pa on that alone.
You had a plan. You chose what market you wanted. You beat your competition with better prices/service/relationship building/patience/persistence/other??

You actively sought out prospects. You worked hard and got results. That I understand and I take my hat off to your sir. Well done and congratulations. I want to follow in your footsteps...the question really should be, do YOU want me following in your footsteps?  Your short post suggests otherwise.

I am new. I have no preconceived ideas. I dont pretend to know 'the best way' I have put my ideas out there for all to see and respect and appreciate constructive criticism.

I would genuinely like and appreciate your honest input.

Regards
David.


 

[xxmattyxx]

A building with some cars outside?