[Clive McDonald]

You make compromises to give yourselves the best possible chance of succeeding.
You've already narrowed your options considerably by deciding by the title that its for trad window cleaners and have excluded the other trades. Carpet cleaners aren't going to rush out and get the shiner.

You gave it about as much thought as finding a name for a dog and the fido might have been the better choice. I admire the title that Mike came up with for the directory because it kept all the options open, excluded no one, and describes exactly what it's purpose is.

I do think it would be good if you could succeed, and you and sanity have as good a chance as anyone, but you won't if you keep spurning opportunities and closing down options.

[d s windowcleaning]

You make compromises to give yourselves the best possible chance of succeeding.
You've already narrowed your options considerably by deciding by the title that its for trad window cleaners and have excluded the other trades. Carpet cleaners aren't going to rush out and get the shiner.

You gave it about as much thought as finding a name for a dog and the fido might have been the better choice. I admire the title that Mike came up with for the directory because it kept all the options open, excluded no one, and describes exactly what it's purpose is.

I do think it would be good if you could succeed, and you and sanity have as good a chance as anyone, but you won't if you keep spurning opportunities and closing down options.

agree

[DASERVICES]

That is the best offer you can have, take it from me having being in the publishing industry if you don't have £10k to start up with then take the offer.

Sponsership makes a magazine successful, not sales.

Then you have print specs etc.. This is what the SLWCN is working with Councils on just flyers and it is very technical stuff

You have the industry at heart and the last thing I would like to see is you being out of pocket in the £k's.

Doug

[Rob_Mac]

If I may add - I believe that there are other areas and other sections of the forum/s that you will alienate by non inclusion.

The carpet cleaners, pressure washers and general cleaners sections all have their own forum members. All of these areas are fascinating reading and as much as I like window cleaning I like to see the bigger picture in the cleaning industry. Including these areas will give you diversity - making the publication more interesting and increase your readership.

Rob

[WCE]

You make compromises to give yourselves the best possible chance of succeeding.
You've already narrowed your options considerably by deciding by the title that its for trad window cleaners and have excluded the other trades. Carpet cleaners aren't going to rush out and get the shiner.

The name Shiner is just a working title so far although it has been the one most people prefer. This rubbish you talk about us narrowing options and apparently aiming our mag at the trad side of the market by using that title. I have never had such a good laugh at a comment in my life. How have we implied that we are not covering WFP etc? Once again you make these comments without any idea of the content.

You gave it about as much thought as finding a name for a dog and the fido might have been the better choice. I admire the title that Mike came up with for the directory because it kept all the options open, excluded no one, and describes exactly what it's purpose is.

We have given the name of the magazine a lot of thought ( I guess you don't like "The Shiner" Discount- This has been noted). Our magazine is a window cleaning magazine. Yes we will (if we can find people with the knowledge) include features on other aspects of cleaning which we hope will be of interest to our readers. The magazine is going to be a specialist title dedicated to window cleaning. We have never said we have an intention to be a general cleaners magazine. Mike does have a good name in Spick and Span but then the directory is a GENERAL cleaning directory not a window cleaning magazine.

If I may add - I believe that there are other areas and other sections of the forum/s that you will alienate by non inclusion.

The carpet cleaners, pressure washers and general cleaners sections all have their own forum members. All of these areas are fascinating reading and as much as I like window cleaning I like to see the bigger picture in the cleaning industry. Including these areas will give you diversity - making the publication more interesting and increase your readership.

Rob

We are not trying to alienate anybody. The point as I keep making is that we are setting up a specialist title dedicated to Window Cleaning. You could argue that a motorcycle magazine is alienating other motorists by only featuring bikes and yes it's true that they could have more readers if they featured cars but they have created a magazine that fill a niche in the market and that is exactly what we are planning to do ourselves. Anyway, the general cleaning market is better catered for and there are magazines that already cover this sector of the cleaning industry. Finally, Rob and Discount, when has Window Talk or PWC ever had  a regular general cleaning section? Never. Why? Because they both know that if  you are producing a magazine dedicated to window cleaning then it is a good idea to concentrate on the subject and not to go off willy nilly writing about subjects that they have no idea about. Yes we will have features on other sectors of cleaning that we think that will interest our readers but the focus will be on window cleaning. Maybe there is a market for say a carpet cleaning magazine but that is something I know nothing about. Maybe in the future If we are successful  with our mag and we find we can get a good network of contributors in place with a detailed knowledge of general cleaning subjects then maybe we will look at producing a general cleaning magazine but that is something for the future. Discount mentioned the idea of Mike producing a Spick and Span magazine. As this is a general cleaners directory and Mike runs a cleaning supplier and I assume he has plenty of contacts throughout the cleaning industry. Maybe he would be better placed to produce a general cleaning mag that caters for the carpet cleaners etc. 

[WCE]

That is the best offer you can have, take it from me having being in the publishing industry if you don't have £10k to start up with then take the offer.

Sponsership makes a magazine successful, not sales.

Then you have print specs etc.. This is what the SLWCN is working with Councils on just flyers and it is very technical stuff

You have the industry at heart and the last thing I would like to see is you being out of pocket in the £k's.

Doug

Firstly Doug, thanks for the concern. We don't want to be out of pocket ether.
Sponsorship might work it some situations but in our case it would compromise our concept of being independent. As for you costings we have already established that we don't need £10k to set up the mag (it's an independent window cleaning magazine not FHM, Nuts or Womens weekly!). You mention the design aspect. Sanity used to work in publishing and produced trade magazines for the building industry. I think he explains the design process best so i have copied it over from the "Professional window cleaner rival publication" Thread. If you haven't read it then take a look it's all about the mag, it's aims and the discussion that sparked this thread. Anyway here it is:

1. Idea (lets create a magazine)
2. Feasablity Evaluation (who will buy it, what will it be about, is this interesting enough to get people buying it, what is the market, will it be worth doing? etc etc etc etc)
3. Financial Evaluation (will it need financing?  costs? income projection, advertising rates, etc etc etc)

At this point, it is decided by the idea originator, publisher, future editorial team, financier, etc whether or not to commit time, energy and money into the project...

4. Design alpha (this is the first rough design of the magazine.  It shows examples of fonts (letter styles) colours, layouts (using Jabberwoky, pleas egoogle it), possible placement of content, page styling, placement of page numbers etc...  This is an internal design, meaning that the production team (currently jusy WCE and myself) would view it and make changes.  If more people join this team, more people would get an input but as of yet nobody has commited THEIR time and effort to it...
5. Design beta.  (last draft of the design, showing final choices of lours,fonts, sizes, placements of content pages and editorial information.)  This is the stage at which it will be forwarded to the 'design team' (the team of people from the forum that will advise us on our design choices)
6. Design Final.  this is the finished design, with all the aforementioned colours, fonts etc decided and set as a template.

Now the bit that DOES require input from potential readers...the content..

7. Theme.  Each issue requires a major theme that will proivide the cover story and the major piece imediately after the contents page and on which the majority of editorial comment will be made.  This theme will be decided by the editorial team (currently...WCE and myself, please see definition of team in a dictionary or wikipedia, although if anyone would like to assist, please do so...)
8. Article procurement.  A register of volunteer article contributors is created at this point, providing sources for articles to match, compliment or contradict the theme.  Other contributions such as letters, jokes, cartoons, etc are obtained in the same manner.  Canvassing is carried out to obtain advertising customers.
8. Editing. The gathered, edited, spellchecked, grammarchecked articles are returned to their writers for their agreement of any changes that have been made. 
9. Layout draft.  The articles and other content are inserted into the allocated text boxes.  Images are obtained to match the articles and inserted into image placeholders in the design agreed in stage 6.  Once the magazine is filled, this is then sent to proofreaders (again, selected from the register of contributors) for checking.
9. Layout final.  At this stage, the artwork for advertisements is put in place, and any changes made from the proofreaders.  Final checks of continuity etc are made and printing marks added.
10.  Proof.  The final proof is sent to the printer, who produces 5 copies for us to check that what is printed is what we see on our PC screens.  If this is ok, then we go to print.....

[WCE]

WCE

At least speak to the guy , see whats on the table, I think it is foolish to discount something before you know the full offer.

To start from scratch in the window cleaning world, is a very tall order, I know from my time with the APWC how difficult things can be.

I thought that their offer was pretty self explanatory. Maybe we should speak to him but as I already posted I think that the idea of helping with their magazine is a non starter for the reasons explained however, we would like the FWC to feature in our mag (along with the guild, APWC etc) . Actually,  Dave maybe you have a point there. I will open communication with Bryan and see what he has got to say. However we will not be prepared to produce Window Talk for them but we would like to work with the FWC (and the other associations) if it was mutually beneficial to both parties but anything we did together would have to be done in such a way that won't compromise our independence.

Finally, I have noticed that some people seem to think that we are hoping to sell our magazine to forum members only and are expecting to get a readership of millions from CIU etc. This is not the case I just thought that as we are a magazine for window cleaners it was a good place to sound out ideas and to discuss with window cleaners what they would like to see in an industry magazine.       
     

[Rob_Mac]

This is only my opinion and I am sure that people will have an opinion on it, there are only so many ways you can show how to clean a window, there are only so many pictures and editorials showing people cleaing windows you can write about before you come full circle.

If you do product tests and are over favourable to one manufacturers products then the forum community may view you to be biased and the bashing will begin. I know that there are individuals on here that have a opinion of Ionics and Craig Mawlam that have never met the guy and never had any product from him. I have met him in a professional capacity but I am amazed by the way he is constantly put down on the forum. Along with Philip Hanson they produced a good window cleaning magazine (some thought was biased- there opinion)

Take the forum for instance - the same questions are asked time and time again as new people join the forum. I doubt very much that there will be a great deal that will be discussed next week other than in a slightly different version of what has already been asked.

I cannot see how you will get enough content to keep filling the pages and I believe you are limiting your market and even possibly seeing a larger market than there is for your publication. Just because a few people on a forum say they will buy it it does not make it feasible on its own to bring it to fruition. You need to do market research and see if it is feasible and to see whether there is a market for the product.

I have one of the most diverse businesses on the forum/s each angle of my business I think is incredibly interesting and we have multiple services to major clients nationally - there is also the view of looking at how you can develop very succesful businesses and writing about them.

By having an introverted perspective of your client base you automatically alienate some very succesful people and I am not included in your publication when I started as a window cleaner and may have an invaluable amount of information to proffer.

Your responses are defensive and that is understandable - you have a vision of a window cleaning magazine that will not be biased, not owned by a manufacturer and full of diverse window cleaning content - how diverse can window cleaning get. You have water fed pole or traditional. Granted there are millions of properties in the country that can all be photographed being cleaned and there will be discussion on tackle etc but the bottom line is -

What will the consumer be getting that they cannot already get on the forums for nothing.

I do not want to be negative but I can pick up just about everything on here and I feel that a large amount of the content may be coming from the forums anyway.

Rob

[WCE]

Quote from: M-CLEAN UK on Today at 10:31:30am If you do product tests and are over favourable to one manufacturers products then the forum community may view you to be biased and the bashing will begin.

Rob, If you haven't already done so I suggest you read the thread "Professional Window Cleaner magazine rival publication" This subject has already been covered in great detail there.


Quote from: M-CLEAN UK on Today at 10:31:30am
I know that there are individuals on here that have a opinion of Ionics and Craig Mawlam that have never met the guy and never had any product from him. I have met him in a professional capacity but I am amazed by the way he is constantly put down on the forum. Along with Philip Hanson they produced a good window cleaning magazine (some thought was biased- there opinion)

 I feel I must make it clear that I have nothing against Craig, Ionics or Phillip Hanson.

Quote from: M-CLEAN UK on Today at 10:31:30am
Take the forum for instance - the same questions are asked time and time again as new people join the forum. I doubt very much that there will be a great deal that will be discussed next week other than in a slightly different version of what has already been asked.
What will the consumer be getting that they cannot already get on the forums for nothing.

CIU and all the other forums are not magazines. They are discussion forums. When someone posts a topic they are inviting comments and discussion. The point is it's an online conversation and is constantly changing. You see a post and you respond to it. Our magazine will inform you of the news, will contain structured articles of interest, product reviews and much more. I think the forums are great and a wealth of information but they are not a competitor to us as we are different things and that we will offer our readers a lot of things that a forum can't.
With regard to the topics on the forum being the same week in week out and the same questions get asked as new members join well yes, Thats the nature of forums.  The same questions get covered time and time again but one of the great things in the forums is the support that is out there for members new and old.


Quote from: M-CLEAN UK on Today at 10:31:30am
Just because a few people on a forum say they will buy it it does not make it feasible on its own to bring it to fruition. You need to do market research and see if it is feasible and to see whether there is a market for the product.

We've already discussed this. The forums are just a part of the research we have done.

[WCE]

Quote from: M-CLEAN UK on Today at 10:31:30am
I have one of the most diverse businesses on the forum/s each angle of my business I think is incredibly interesting and we have multiple services to major clients nationally - there is also the view of looking at how you can develop very succesful businesses and writing about them.
By having an introverted perspective of your client base you automatically alienate some very succesful people and I am not included in your publication when I started as a window cleaner and may have an invaluable amount of information to proffer.

I don't recall saying that we wouldn't run articles on other aspects of cleaning as long as they were of interest to our core market. In fact I remember saying that we don't have a detailed knowledge of some of the other aspects of cleaning and that if someone submitted an article along these lines then as long as it was good enough then we would use it. We are not trying to alienate anybody but at the same time we do not want to overstretch ourselves by making our remit so big that we have to find someone with specialist knowledge to edit the articles. I don't know anything about carpet cleaning how can i write about it or edit someones article? If you want to submit an article about growing your business and about branching out into other sectors of cleaning then PLEASE DO! I am sure that our readers would be interested. Once you have written it (ms word doc please!) then you can email me it (wce@sky.com). If you have any other ideas for articles let me know.


Quote from: M-CLEAN UK on Today at 10:31:30am
Your responses are defensive.
   
Sorry! Didn't mean to come across that way. I am just trying to answer peoples questions.


Quote from: M-CLEAN UK on Today at 10:31:30am
You have a vision of a window cleaning magazine that will not be biased, not owned by a manufacturer and full of diverse window cleaning content - how diverse can window cleaning get. You have water fed pole or traditional.

There are many different aspects to cleaning a window. Squeegee (trad) and WFP are just two parts of our industry. What about cradle work or cherry picker work for example? Window cleaning is diverse.


Quote from: M-CLEAN UK on Today at 10:31:30am
I do not want to be negative but I can pick up just about everything on here and I feel that a large amount of the content may be coming from the forums anyway.

How can you judge the content when you haven't seen any yet? Our content will be coming from many sources the same as the market research. The forums are only a part of it.   

[Moderator David@stives]

WCE & co

Dont get drawn, If I was you I would now shut up , go away, then come back and prove your critics wrong.

You have been given some advice, maybe some good , some bad, take what you need onboard and do what you feel is right.

[WCE]

WCE & co

Dont get drawn, If I was you I would now shut up , go away, then come back and prove your critics wrong.

You have been given some advice, maybe some good , some bad, take what you need onboard and do what you feel is right.

Another fair comment. I feel that we are starting to go round in circles. Another thread will be started when we have some development news. 

[TennetClean]

we don't have a detailed knowledge of some of the other aspects of cleaning and that if someone submitted an article along these lines then as long as it was good enough then we would use it

dont you think that this is a big problem?

Say someone submitted an article about say cradle window cleaning that you know nothing about.  How would you know if it was correct and didnt encourage bad or even illegal practices???

Also, your mate sanity only appeared less than a year ago asking newbie questions about window cleaning.  Do you think experience of less than ONE year qualifies somwone to produce a window cleaning magazine?  What experience of commercial, abseiling, powered access, aid climbing window cleaning, method statements, risk assessments, radhaz and all the other technical aspects does he or you have?  Some who are harsher than me would call you amateurs.

I also note about sanity that he/she has not even bothered to let anyone know his or her real name or any other details, not even an email address (although he did invite me to email him LOL).  That sort of secrecy does not bode well as it screams "I have something to hide" (That something probably is that he doesnt know squat about window cleaning)

just my opinion, keep up the good work lol

[WCE]

we don't have a detailed knowledge of some of the other aspects of cleaning and that if someone submitted an article along these lines then as long as it was good enough then we would use it

dont you think that this is a big problem?

Say someone submitted an article about say cradle window cleaning that you know nothing about.  How would you know if it was correct and didnt encourage bad or even illegal practices???

Just to clarify, I meant other aspects of cleaning not window cleaning. You are quite right if we don't have the knowledge of a particular subject how can we know right or wrong? That was exactly the point I made:

I don't recall saying that we wouldn't run articles on other aspects of cleaning as long as they were of interest to our core market. In fact I remember saying that we don't have a detailed knowledge of some of the other aspects of cleaning and that if someone submitted an article along these lines then as long as it was good enough then we would use it. We are not trying to alienate anybody but at the same time we do not want to overstretch ourselves by making our remit so big that we have to find someone with specialist knowledge to edit the articles. I don't know anything about carpet cleaning how can i write about it or edit someones article? If you want to submit an article about growing your business and about branching out into other sectors of cleaning then PLEASE DO! I am sure that our readers would be interested. Once you have written it (ms word doc please!) then you can email me it (wce@sky.com). If you have any other ideas for articles let me know.

[Clive McDonald]

I'm glad the debate has opened up a little and I note some excellent informed comments from M-Clean.

It's a bit much I think to listen to all this high principle stuff- we will not compromise our integrity on bringing a mag by and for WC's. What a load of old toffee- turns out you've only being going a year and suddenly you are the guardians of the conscience of an industry.

You seem too dim witted to take on the points about broadening your appeal by added diversity, interest, and readership.Too full of lofty ideals to sully yourself with invovement with a ready made FWC vehicle offered to you on a plate.Too superior to realise the synergy of trying for a tie in with a brilliantly strategised directory listing 6,000 cleaning contractors.

You haven't any ideas of your own of course.

Several people with first hand knowledge have already attested to the difficulty of what you are trying to do- most telling for me was peter saying about chasing articles and the man who did have a viable mag desperate to get rid of it because it had taken over his life. To eschew sound advice in the absence of any kind of thought through purpose of your own is just baffleing.

[Rob_Mac]

I am guilty of not reading through posts fully and can see that some of the points I made had already been noted.

I genuinely hope you achieve your goals.

The people on here seem to be educated by the forum/s and have knowledge and understanding at their fingertips that the majority of window cleaners are not privvy to.

If the statistics are correct there are 180000 window cleaners in this country, so we are the minority and lets say that there are another 30000 individuals that are business savvy and forward thinking - it could be more it could be less - not a massive market.

Of the roughly 150000 (I don't know how many window cleaners there are on here) the majority have fallen into it because it isn't difficult to set up, or run and easy money can be made for very little cost or physical effort.

Most window cleaners I see are  blokes who have a set of ladders, working off a car, on their own - who just want to cover their bills and have a couple of pints - they will not be interested in a glossy mag and will never get the link from their rounds to someone with a shiney van and bog brush on a pole (as they see it), they don't give a stuff about the WAHD 2005 and are just not interested in rocking the boat.

Experience has been mentioned and the credibility of the publishers of the magazine has been called into question. Tennet is upfront and speaks as he sees a situation, he may say things that are inflammatory but he is never far from wrong and someone who is only one year old in the industry will not have the wisdom to cover the detail.

When the APWC had its first meeting I was there, it came under a lot of fire because ( I feel) it felt obliged to broadcast its every move on the forum/s.

My opinion as someone who has a broader business than one angle ( there is nothing wrong with being a window cleaner) is to look at working with other areas of the cleaning industry to bring to the market an industry wide magazine - now that I would buy!!!! because it would be interesting and diverse and the content would be massive and so would the readership.

Whatever you decide - good luck but I will not be buying a window cleaning magazine when I have it all here.

Rob

[WCE]

Thank you for your reply Rob. I did say that I wasn't going to post on this thread again but I thought your post was so well written it deserved a response. I understand what you are saying and wish to thank you for taking the time to respond. The one point I wish to make is that I think tenent clean had just looked at when we first appeared on CIU and assumed that was when we started Window Cleaning. I have been in window cleaning for 5 years and have many contacts with experience going back 25 years +. The combined knowledge base is incredible and I am sure that between my contacts and myself there is not much that we don't know about window cleaning (I'm not saying we know everything - there's always something new to learn). What I don't know much about is publication. Sanity may of only been window cleaning a year or so but without him the magazine would be a non starter as what he does have is extensive experience in publishing/producing magazines trade journals etc. My point is that I could know more than anyone else in the world about window cleaning but all this knowledge would useless if there is no one who can actually design the mag. That is why we are producing this magazine as a team. My weak spot maybe one thing that is someone else's forte. It's the combination of all our skills that will produce this magazine and as I said without sanity's design knowledge we would be a bit stuck at this stage. It's all about matching our skills to provide a good balance. Thank you once again for your comments they have been taken on board. If you have any other suggestions then please feel free to email me!
Regards
Pete