[windowwashers]

It's an irrelevance, because you're interpreting the wahr to suit your own designs and what you interpret isn't necessarily what HSE mean.

Lol, i think that you wish it was an interpretation, but the way i see it it is black and white.  BUT i hear what your saying and i'm gonna email my local hse office and ask the question.

Also there's better ways to get more biz than trying to see off the oppo via underhand grassing.

theres nothing underhand about wanting a level playing field.  I went WFP purely for reasons of speed, i didnt know about this law then, but what about boys who have changed because of this law?  Is it fair that they have spent money to obey the law and their competitors havent and nothing gets done?

No, no, no.  Its high time ladder boys felt the weight of the law.  All i'm doing is helping really LOL.  I feel it is my moral duty to take their contracts from them.

Having fun again I see Tennet 

[matt]

...and by the way, if you're really being serious (and I have my doubts....I still believe you're a wind-up merchant)

This aint a wind up mate, and I will do the reporting anonymously.  Why should I tolerate competition from window cleaners who are breaking the law?

The answer is, I wont.

As for the HSE, the law is there in black and white, theres no "view" about it.

And while i think its noble of you to "not grass fellow shiners up", business is business.  I'll especially be doing it where I see guys doing commercial contracts.  Then, what a suprise, the week after they lose a window cleaner because he got done for helf and safety, a new window cleaner who is safe wants to quote for the job.

I'm glad whoever it was started this thread now, i'm quite excited about this.

It's an irrelevance, because you're interpreting the wahr to suit your own designs and what you interpret isn't necessarily what HSE mean.

Trust me...before you make a buffoon of yourself and enemies take 15 minutes to speak to your local HSE officer to see what's what.

Also there's better ways to get more biz than trying to see off the oppo via underhand grassing.

If you're any good and competitive then biz tends to flow your way naturally....or are you crap at your job and struggling to get new biz?

your right

ive done the HSE course, it was a while ago, but i stay in touch with a few guys who were on the course

i also live next door to our local councils HSE guy, i clean his windows

the WaHD is very easy to interpret how you like, to suit your own means, hey most of the WFP guys turn it so ladders are banned, where are a painter will go the other way and say they are not, afterall a tower scaffold will get him up to paint a window ( its not cost effective though, but the WaHD doesnt care about cost effective )

you can still use ladders, you ideally need to do a risk assesment everytime  you climb, but we all know the risks of ladder

[simon knight]

Try this stunt down here and there's plenty of boys who'll see it as their moral duty to wrap your hose around your neck and garrote you with it.

Sorry mate.... Not only are you wrong I suspect that because you're inept at wfp your attempt at "leveling the playing field" is so that the "ladder monkeys" better results won't then be an issue.  I note from your lack of quoting the paragraph in my last post re: "crap at your job"...I also suspect this is a bit near the mark for comfort...yes?

As I say: Watch your back...you're treading a thin line when threatening peoples means of paying for a roof over their heads and putting food on the table for their kids!

[matt]

Try this stunt down here and there's plenty of boys who'll see it as their moral duty to wrap your hose around your neck and garrote you with it.

Sorry mate.... Not only are you wrong I suspect that because you're inept at wfp your attempt at "leveling the playing field" is so that the "ladder monkeys" better results won't then be an issue.  I note from your lack of quoting the paragraph in my last post re: "crap at your job"...I also suspect this is a bit near the mark for comfort...yes?

As I say: Watch your back...you're treading a thin line when threatening peoples means of paying for a roof over their heads and putting food on the table for their kids!

i have learnt in the last few weeks that tuppence clean likes to makes posts for attention, not sure why, i would hazzard a guess that he gets no attention in real life, so comes on here for it

its ok to sometimes to reply to his posts, afterall, if he needs the attention, then it good of the kind folks of CIU to help with his attention needs, but lets try and moderate it, otherwise every single post of his will be in the same vain ( i know most are, but he does on the odd occasion make a post of some sence, its 3 so far i belive )

[TennetClean]

Matt I dont care if other people disagree with me, you should know that by now.  I never started this thread!

your right

ive done the HSE course, it was a while ago, but i stay in touch with a few guys who were on the course

i also live next door to our local councils HSE guy, i clean his windows

A wise sage as far as Health and safety goes then... BUT...

where are a painter will go the other way and say they are not, afterall a tower scaffold will get him up to paint a window ( its not cost effective though, but the WaHD doesnt care about cost effective )

Using a scaffold tower is still 'work at height' matey.

According to what that thing says, if its reasonable you HAVE TO avoid work at height if possible.  Using a scaffold tower is NOT avoiding work at height, it is just a different type of work at height.

WFP is not just another type of work at height, it IS avoiding it alltogether.

Someone else said what about roofers and painters etc who use ladders.  Well good for them, they dont have a reasonable alternative.  Window cleaners do, its that simple really.

I am open minded about this, but I have yet to see anyone come forward with a convincing argument as to why ladders are legal for window cleaning that could be done with WFP?

All everyone keeps saying is "your wrong, your wrong".  I am not wrong.  Explain how you can use work at height when it would have possible to use WFP and still be legal?  You cant.

Building owners may not know that.  It is my duty to make sure they do, and when they discover their own window cleaner is illegal it is also my duty to take the contract.  Life is harsh aint it, especially when you break the law.

As I say: Watch your back...you're treading a thin line when threatening peoples means of paying for a roof over their heads and putting food on the table for their kids!

Then they should work legally, simple.  As I said before what started all this - if you cant afford WFP system, dont become a window cleaner.

You keep saying I'm wrong, but I think its pretty obvious I am not wrong.  You may not like it, but thats life.  If I am wrong, then please explain how I am wrong?  The law is there in black and white, i just read it for myself and so can you.

[TennetClean]

What I would consider reasonably practicable alternative is using a telescopic pole with a squeegee/applicator on the end.

Those regulations says avoid work at height where possible, it does not say avoid wasting water where possible.  Both would be ok under them as far as i can see

No, I could argue that water fed pole isn't a reasonably practicable alternative. I could turn round and say it's a waste of valuable re sources - water.  Who is going to argue with that?  In a court of law you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Thats a terrible argument foxman, because what court in their right mind is going to put saving water ahead of a persons safety.  They arent, because its not reasonable, and because the law says avoid work at height if possible

(a) the short duration of use;

Now see what the HSE regard as the short duration of time, you will soon realise that window cleaning is not regarded as working off a ladder. That alone throws everything you've said in the bin (unllike you i am a qualified health and safety officer)

Interesting, and I have to admit that this point is about the closest I have come to hearing something of any merit.  Until you actually read the thing.  This part is talking about using a ladder, I am talking about work at height.

Avoid work at height if possible it is saying, then this bit you are on about is saying you can only use a ladder for short duration tasks (as opposed to other types of work at height ie scaffold).  Meaning, only after you have proved it HAS to be done at height.

Where's your new Ionics system now!!

I dont have one YET, but i will be getting one soon i hope

For a qualified health and safety officer, I would have thought you would know this inside out.  Maybe not.  Perhaps you should ask craig21t or dd, they might have a better grasp.

By the way, is your company connected with a Crystal Clear in south wales?

[TennetClean]

so let me get this right, you are saying that window cleaning from ladders is NOT "work at height?"

LOL

Where on earth do you get that from?  Show me where the definition is.

Also using WFP in a drought is not against the law, or can you show me somewhere that says it is?

[simon knight]

No, if you read it you will see that window cleaning is not classed as 'working off a ladder'  (The short duration of use exception applies in this case) that's the whole point. You're technically not working at height, it's being used for access.

Assuming Foxman is right, and with him being a HSE officer I suspect he is,  I guess that puts paid to your plans for global (sorry Coventry) window cleaning dominance!

Oh well...back to the drawing board for you eh!

[NWH]

I also tell customers that if there is a safer way to clean windows these days it has to be used i thought that was now the law regarding ladders,why use ladders anyway if you don`t have to those days are gone forever for me it`s a mugs game climbing ladders alday when you don`t have to.

[Jason Atwell]

I also tell customers that if there is a safer way to clean windows these days it has to be used i thought that was now the law regarding ladders,why use ladders anyway if you don`t have to those days are gone forever for me it`s a mugs game climbing ladders alday when you don`t have to.

NWH,

You really should not refer to half the people on this forum as mugs! :
Who the hell do you think you are!!

[NWH]

I also tell customers that if there is a safer way to clean windows these days it has to be used i thought that was now the law regarding ladders,why use ladders anyway if you don`t have to those days are gone forever for me it`s a mugs game climbing ladders alday when you don`t have to.

NWH,

You really should not refer to half the people on this forum as mugs! :
Who the hell do you think you are!!

I`m not calling anyone a mug what i meant to say was why climb ladders alday long,these days you don`t have to do it.But if you want to work 2-3 times harder than a WFP window cleaner just so that you can say your a die hard window cleaner then looking at it like that you could be thought of as a mug.The job is much easier these days with the technology there is now,as the saying goes work smarter not harder.

[TennetClean]

Assuming Foxman is right, and with him being a HSE officer I suspect he is,  I guess that puts paid to your plans for global (sorry Coventry) window cleaning dominance!

Oh well...back to the drawing board for you eh!

Well maybe your right, but something tells me that your "Health and Safety officer" credibility is seriously stretched if it transpires that you have actually be done by the HSE yourself for 5 different breaches!...

click here to see

Perhaps you arent really the best person to be lecturing us about health and safety foxman?  Maybe get craig21t or dd instead.

I think what he actually means is that he is the health and safety "officer" for crystal clear ie the one in charge of it for HIS company, which is no big shakes. 

Also, foxman, for the record I think you are wrong in saying that window cleaning is not "work at height".  But I'll apologise if I am wrong (But i'm not so I wont be apologising).

So, my campaign is still on then, "Your ladder monkey window cleaner is illegal" is my new catchphrase, and I WILL report any I see.  I can see some nice juicy contracts coming my way this year.  ANyone want to join my campaign?  Maybe I'll have stickers made up.

All in the name of civic duty you understand

[L.J.Thorpe]

for the attention of tennet
you are an ass
duration is a key word
as is straightforward
dont get the hump if this link dont work but
www.hse.gov.uk/myth/april.htm

[TennetClean]

for the attention of tennet
you are an ass

The law is an ass, I am its humble servant.

As for stepladders, I dont use em for window cleaning, and never have.  But I have seen a few shopkeeper using em to clean with.

Me? Get the hump? No!

www.hse.gov.uk/falls/window.htm

Look at the VERY FIRST option on that table.

If the HSE were so happy about us using ladders for window cleaning because of its "short duration", why would the FIRST CONSIDERATION be
"Can you do the work from the ground (e.g. waterfed pole system)?" as on that link.

Foxman has confused the issue here a bit with this short duration nonsense.  He should go back to operating mewps illiegally.  As I understand it is works like this:

1 ONLY if it is not possible for you to work from the ground can you work at height.  For window cleaners, thats the end of the story.  If it is possible to use WFP then it HAS to be used, or you will be reported by me.

2 If the ONLY option is to work at height, you can use ladders ONLY for short duration and straightforward tasks.  Otherwise its scaffold or cherry picker etc.

so the short duration business doesnt even apply matey, unless the window cannot be done with WFP for some reason (like a flat roof etc).

[Feen]

its simple- work to live, not live to work. When it gets to the latter its time to give up!!

It's not as simple as that. If you don't enjoy your work, where's your life? In front of the tv??

[L.J.Thorpe]

you understand it wrong then
short duration work is not con sidered high risk
most domestic work falls into that category
the clock starts every time you move the ladder
use a recognised anti slip device (rojak,laddermatrix)and you have covered yourself
hse HAVE NOT banned ladders
you are an antagonistic twat
and ((best of all ))
YOU ARE WRONG
regulations can become laws
regulations are NOT already laws
all your answers are pedantic
you remain an unmitigated prick
(sorry mods)

[TennetClean]

Bit harsh?  Oh well maybe not.

Regualtions ARE laws my friend.  This I know to be a fact.

Avoid work at height if possible.  It is possible, so "duration" doesnt come into it.  The only time "Duration" is relevant is if work at height cant be avoided.

Still not heard ANY argument that makes any sense on this one.  My campaign is going ahead.  Might even make the local paper.

[Sir Squeaky]

you understand it wrong then
short duration work is not con sidered high risk
most domestic work falls into that category
the clock starts every time you move the ladder
use a recognised anti slip device (rojak,laddermatrix)and you have covered yourself
hse HAVE NOT banned ladders
you are an antagonistic fool
and ((best of all ))
YOU ARE WRONG
regulations can become laws
regulations are NOT already laws
all your answers are pedantic
you remain an unmitigated prick
(sorry mods)

Yeah, he's a wfp cuddler like bushpig.
He uses it to cook his dinner, please his wife, go fishing..etc...
It's a magic wand to, and Paul Daniels is out of a job. :

Ignore him, ladders are not illegal.
I've worked in front of coppers and heath and safety people.
They smile and say hello.
Nothing wrong, don't worry.

I don't use them because I can't be arsed to climb up and down them any more.

Not because the wfp hype brigade tell me I'm breaking the law and I'll get my botty smacked.

[Sir Squeaky]

Its not my fault if they are breaking the law matey.  Tut tut shame on them, have they no honour?

Heh heh, boy do you NOT want to be a ladder man near me soon.  Now hush let me read the thing so I can plan my militancy.

I'm not joking either you know!

Understandable if your still using ladders.

"You can't outrun the long arm of the law..."

and dont forget...

"I fought the law and... THE LAW WON"

Ha ha ha, this is gonna be so funny.  Watch these monkeys get slapped with fines for breaking the law.

And watch you sweating when we tell all these people who caused them the trouble.

So because of your high and mighty attitude to others you're prepared to end up looking over your shoulder all the time?

I'm not joking either you know!

[TennetClean]

So because of your high and mighty attitude to others you're prepared to end up looking over your shoulder all the time?

Lol, it is them who will be looking over their shoulder matey, in a "What will he report us for next" fashion.

As you may have guessed from my posts, I am not one to be intimidated.  I feel sorry for any ladder boys near me, espcially ones that have nice juicy contracts I want.