This is an advertisement
Interested In Advertising? | Contact Us Here
Warning!

 

Welcome to Clean It Up; the UK`s largest cleaning forum with over 34,000 members

 

Please login or register to post and reply to topics.      

 

Forgot your password? Click here

jeff1

  • Posts: 5855
How will this affect your future as a W/C
« on: April 23, 2008, 04:14:02 pm »
Well here I am again, this time putting my twopence worth in regarding the Ionics system, advertised in the Window Cleaners Magazine that dropped onto my Mat today.

On another  Post, there is a section regarding this mag as being bias, OK so it is, but who pays for it?? I don't know?
I'm not a Ionics user and my honest and only reason for this is COST and I don't mind admitting it, I would love one.
There very expensive and I could never see how they could Justify the cost? but read on.

That's not the reason I wrote this today, I read their article on crash testing that cost Ionic well over £100,000, the first thing that caught my eye on the back page was the tank frame holding bracket made from cast, when I first seen it, my thoughts were, that will never hold in a head on impact? How wrong I was.

Thatcham Testing center who carry out crash testing was the place all the tests were carried out, so it wasn't an ionics employee who drove the van at a wall at 30mph and jumped out just before impact, this is an official recognised body.
Test 1,2,3 and 4 were the Hyper-G-sled tests, this enabled ionics to test and fine-tune there installed systems.

Test1 impacted at only 12.4mph although a Pass result, it showed ionics that improvements could be made, 2 of the 8 holding brackets failed so ionics improved the holding brackets.

Test 2 was conducted at 18.6mph and Failed, this test highlighted that a system fitted to the thin floor and not the chassis,..at impact the system hinged forward ripping the brackets and steel under plates right through the floor, again 2 brackets failed.

Test 3 Again conducted at 18.6mph but this time the improvements to the clamps and steel chassis resulted in a Pass, no failed clamps in this test and the system stayed were it was fitted, ionics felt that further improvements to the clamps were needed as they showed signs of imminent failure.

Test 4 was conducted at 31.1mph With the redesign of the clamps and the tank frame the test was a Pass, none of the anchor points or clamps failed, ionics were now ready for there 100% barrier crash test.

This test had to be near as possible to a real head on crash, the van was accelerated to 30mph and driven into a 100 tonne concrete barrier, a complete success, the tank frame absorbing a good amount of the impact energy and all the clamps held securely.

All this testing has resulted in ionics gaining the FMVSS-208 safety standard certification for the fitted systems.

Now if its true what ionics say (and I can't see why its not) that insurance companies will soon refuse insurance to van mounted systems, if they are not fitted to the FMVSS standard, this will have a huge impact on van mount system installers who don't hold this certificate. Nice business move Craig, not was it only a good business move, it was an excellent safety move.
I've seen many 1000ltr tanks held in by ratchet straps, that's fine if there the right breaking strain, have a look at ionics test results and see the tonnage forces placed upon the fixings during a crash, I've also seen 1000ltr tanks fitted with ratchet straps that are attached to eye bolts, bolted to the thin metal floor, No good guy's, get the bolts fitted to the chassis, and check the breaking strain? of straps and bolts and only ever use high tensile steel nuts and bolts.

I seen last week a 1000ltr system fitted with timber blocks to stop the tank moving around the van, When I said to the guy about it, his attitude was ''It'll be alright its not going any where??? Crazy or what.

If ionics tests saves just one life? then well done to them in my mind.
Insurance companies may now be looking for approved installed systems before they will insure you.

These tests may have a devastating future impact on window cleaners with van mounts, what if you can't afford a pro fitted system? are you going to drive around with no insurance? are you going to return to ladders? Who knows what the future holds.

I for one, have a trailer system and these tests won't affect me, but I do feel for the van mounted Guy's who may not be able to obtain insurance for the van system in the future.

cvdewsbury

Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2008, 04:28:26 pm »
all the other companies involved in fitting tanks into vans would also need to obtain the fmvss 08 certificate as I,m sure they wouldn,t want to lose the business ...secondly all well and done the ionics van hitting a 100 ton barrier at 18 mph,21mph etc...were in the real world what would happen if the vechile hit a wall at 75mph?

*foxman

  • Posts: 250
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2008, 04:38:35 pm »
We have vans fitted out by Sortimo which PWC kindly highlighted are crash tested!!

jeff1

  • Posts: 5855
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2008, 04:42:06 pm »
all the other companies involved in fitting tanks into vans would also need to obtain the fmvss 08 certificate as I,m sure they wouldn,t want to lose the business ...secondly all well and done the ionics van hitting a 100 ton barrier at 18 mph,21mph etc...were in the real world what would happen if the vechile hit a wall at 75mph?
Read the mag? one company whos system was put through secret tests without them knowing has already given up installing them and now only builds trailer systems.
The cost of obtaining these certificated I would imagine is huge.

Standard barrier crash tests are carried out at 30mph even for all the cars we drive today, there not tested at 75mph which is Illegal  by the way, even if you had a head on crash at 70mph your chances of survival are reduced even in a car, I don't think anyone would survive this sort of crash with a 1 Ton tank behind them no matter how its fitted.

twt

Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2008, 04:51:20 pm »
Interesting as what constitutes a van being modified? an installed system probably is a modification but a tank strapped down any old way may be classed as cargo?

Jago

  • Posts: 453
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2008, 05:12:44 pm »
What has your experience been like with there service
As the Lad that covers Berkshire is a one before B-Hole.

He  Just about returned my call from his car and then did not bother to ring again when he said he would ring back
The service is a shambles as he was probbably not impressed as I was only looking at entry level for van.

But I really do love there kit as it is spot on but I will buy from another rep oneday
To Do Is To Dare

JSMC

  • Posts: 3511
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2008, 05:29:53 pm »
so i assume the same should go for lorries carrying IBC containers which are basically only packed into the trailer and sometimes straps through over them ?

sounds like scaremainering

"Now if its true what ionics say (and I can't see why its not) that insurance companies will soon refuse insurance to van mounted systems, if they are not fitted to the FMVSS standard"

where do Ionics say the above and which insurance companies name has been put to this ?

P®oPole™

  • Posts: 985
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2008, 05:50:16 pm »
Exactly what I was saying the other night.

Is saving a few quid worth risking your life?

One day it will happen and someone will die the most horrible bone crushing death which could have been totally avoided. And unfortunately with wfp now becoming more and more popular it could eventually be more dangerous than ladders, imagine that.

Or imagine an employee was in a serious accident? Your insurance would be void and without doubt you would probably face criminal charges for negligence and of course Bankruptcy.

Wfp systems fitted by Mickey Mouse and gang are nothing short of a death wish! Even with a box frame steel cage I wouldn't like to try my luck especialy after seeing those bolts in sled-test 2 rip through the floor at 18.6mph I would hate to think what would happen without floor strengthening.

It seems I may have initially been slightly wrong when I said my tank would hold under 640tonnes. It turns out from what I read today it will take 540, but hey, give or take 100tonnes I'm not fussed especially when considering the 30mph 1000l tank would only create 52tonnes of kinetic energy. However make no mistake about it 52ton is 52ton and an enormous force, mere straps or whatever diy means of securing a tank would stand absolutely no chance.

Go to the Ionic Systems website and see the shocking crash test footage for yourself!

Although I have nothing against diy if done properly I can’t stand all this "my clobbered together system is better than yours" and recomending dangerous and life threatning practices. One member here even once told us all "its fine to seatbelt a tank in the back of an estate car"
‘Investment always pays’ in some cases, it does. It can pay for piece of mind and to someone with sense that alone is worth every penny.

ProPole

Jago

  • Posts: 453
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2008, 06:05:59 pm »
I would have to agree that is why I was looking at the system but as yet can not afford it so catch 22 really
Want it as safety or I would not have gone WFP then risking things with 10 25 liter cans in motor
doh
To Do Is To Dare

xxmattyxx

Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2008, 06:06:46 pm »
I would have thought that there would be a minimum load rating whereby this couldnt come into force unless you exceeded that load, otherwise we'd all be uninsured for having a flask of coffee in the van.


Perhaps anything above 300 litres.

xxmattyxx

Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2008, 06:15:35 pm »
I see their certificate was awarded in February 2003  ???  ??? So if thats the case why havent insurance companies refused insurance since then ?? that is 5 years ago;...... and theyre only bringing it to light now??

??? ???

alanwilson

  • Posts: 1885
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2008, 06:31:03 pm »
its all twaddle, I have had a look at Ionics systems, and to be honest, I don't think much of them - poor quality fittings, the frames are ok I suppose but the real issue here is how they are fitted.

The FMVS test only applies to the exact same system, so if it was tested with a 300ltr tank, then the 600 and 1000ltr systems are not covered by the certificate.  Add to this the fact they tested in a transit I think, it does not apply to a different van.  The systems are generic and as such cannot be covered by a single test certificate.  much more important is the PSV certificate on a van, the inspector is resposible for ensuring any fitted machinery, tank or cylinder is fitted in such a way that it does not create a danger to the driver or passenger/s.

The humble opinion of Alan
I've never been to bed with an ugly bird but I've woken up with loads!

Alex Wingrove

  • Posts: 1435
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2008, 06:44:20 pm »

Go to the Ionic Systems website and see the shocking crash test footage for yourself!



ProPole


IN that video i was watching the ionics system didn't move an inch, but the other one killed the dummy, did it have any straps what so ever, it just looked like a solid piece of metal flying through the air.

is the 540 kinetic tons the same as 540 real tons though, because i think there is a difference in energy and actual force, i cant be sure

Alex Wingrove

  • Posts: 1435
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2008, 06:49:10 pm »
I think we should conduct a test ourselves,

if everyone one on this forum put in £10 we could buy a ex bt transit mk5 for £500 and get a 500l tank and strap it down,

get a few high speed camera at 2 angles and 2 normal speed cameras. and then all we need is a big block of concrete,

i think it would be good to crash it at 40mph a more realistic speed to have a head on, i dont know about you but you have to be a fool to have a head on at 30mph, if you hit another car its 15mph each,

its more likely to be 60mph in a built up area where bother vehicles are traveling at 30mph.

so to conclude lets get a van and test it ourselves to see what really happens

who is with me, i will donate the first tenner!

xxmattyxx

Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2008, 06:57:52 pm »
who is with me, i will donate the first tenner!

 ;D  ;D

Im up for that, perhaps Jeremy Clarkson would be interested, get the Hamster to drive the truck  ;D

heres my tenner


alanwilson

  • Posts: 1885
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2008, 06:59:42 pm »
there is a difference.

540 tons resting at rest exerts 540tons of force on the ground, it exerts force in a downwards motion.

540 kinetic tons is a vague description of the force exerted by a tank moving in a predominantly horizontal motion.

It does not take into account force/area = pressure.

A pencil travelling fast enough could exert 540 kinetic tons of force  (kinetic simply means moving)

and yes I would love to do some testing, we used to do a lot of stress testing when I worked in aerospace but it was boring.  Lets crash the vans at 90mph, make it corkscrew through the air and blow up wayhay fun!
I've never been to bed with an ugly bird but I've woken up with loads!

Alex Wingrove

  • Posts: 1435
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2008, 07:04:11 pm »
no im being serious not advanced stat taking test, just one so we can see what really happens to a tank of water secured by ratchet straps,

it will cost £1000 it total, just need the concrete block 

Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2008, 07:05:11 pm »
who is with me, i will donate the first tenner!

 ;D  ;D

Im up for that, perhaps Jeremy Clarkson would be interested, get the Hamster to drive the truck  ;D

heres my tenner
www.dojoo.notlong.com
lol

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2008, 07:10:08 pm »
Can I drive it ?

Alex Wingrove

  • Posts: 1435
Re: How will this affect your future as a W/C
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2008, 07:13:13 pm »
Can I drive it ?

well there is the danger you could die... but all things considered i dont see why not

i would prefer alexis the ctd, but

who would be up for donating £10 and seeing what can be done?