[dai]

There have been a few posts recently about hot water systems, the use of Isopropanyl, etc.
My question is why?
The majority of my customers have now had their windows cleaned more than 30 times WFP, they are happy with, and pay for my services.
So why change anything? I can see the benefit of using Isopropanyl on those very rare occasions that we are working in sub zero weather, it could save you losing a few hours defreezing equipment.
I have read on here about it being good for removing silicon, that's well scary, if it can do that what's it going to do to the adhesive that sticks the leads on?
If customers are happy with your standards, and pay for them, what's the point in giving yourself something else to worry about?
Hot water systems are just another thing to go wrong, there use could be well justified if you did a lot of very dirty glass, but for maintenance cleans?
the only thing that can be of benefit, is something that's going to make the job a lot quicker.
If I was using Isopropanyl and hot water, I wouldn't be any quicker, my technique would be the same.
I think I prefer to keep things  simple. Dai

[NWH]

I do agree with that there comes a point with WFP wether your hot or not that you come to the stage that your as quick as your going to be,hot water makes no difference with mantainence cleans over how quick you`ll be.When you have windows up to scratch it`s only a case of a few scrubs and a rinse with a good flow rate and there done,hot water might dry quicker but like i say on regular work that`s the only advantage.

[dd]

Agree.

Isapropanyl sounds good from the posts, but as you say if it removes silicon it could be a worry as silicon is used as a sealant, not just smeared over glass to annoy us. And what else might it remove?

Also if it is toxic regulary getting water on hands may be a problem over time.

[AJ]

one of the best angles i've found for custys is 'wfp is chemical free'. why complicate matters?

[NWH]

If you don`t think it works then don`t use it,in my opinion it does work and the results are there to see for yourself ie less milking on prblem windows the glass even looks cleaner when using it.In the amounts we are talking about using even over time no damage will be caused,don`t forget we are talking about diluting 1/2 a pint in 500ltrs of water not a 100ltrs of it in 500ltrs,the resin manufacturers have said it causes no damage to resin and has no effect on the tds with the amounts used what have you got to lose.Some on here that have said they`ve used it and noticed no difference 2-1 on they`ve not used the right amount.

[windowwashers]

If you don`t think it works then don`t use it,in my opinion it does work and the results are there to see for yourself ie less milking on prblem windows the glass even looks cleaner when using it.In the amounts we are talking about using even over time no damage will be caused,don`t forget we are talking about diluting 1/2 a pint in 500ltrs of water not a 100ltrs of it in 500ltrs,the resin manufacturers have said it causes no damage to resin and has no effect on the tds with the amounts used what have you got to lose.Some on here that have said they`ve used it and noticed no difference 2-1 on they`ve not used the right amount.

MWH I am not knocking using it at all, pure water will leave the glass just as shinyif clean correctly, without the added extra, in winter it will be a benifit, but making the glass shine better it cant (unless it is leaving a flim where pure 000 does not) I hope you see my point there, nothing in water cleaned right leaves glass totally clear to shine as it should.

Ian

[Pj]

Sound advice Dai

I may use Isoprop myself next winter, but lets not complicate our job

[LWC]

this is so true, keeping things simple. why over complicate it. i try to drum this into all new wfp'ers. all you have to do is GET PURE WATER UP TO THE WINDOW...thats it. good scrub and a rinse...thats all there is to it. it was so complicated when i started, but it really isnt!

for instance, i have a van mounted system, and soon im sending off 2 guys in the van, im going to get myself a pickup and work with some barrels and my backpack. so simple, and will bejust as clean as all of your hot water systems. i am also going to setup a trailer system for those bigger jobs

[Nathanael Jones]

I can't comment on Isopropanoyl as I won't be trying it till next week,.. but Hot has been a real eye opener for me.

It's not essential, and cold water does do the same job in most circumstances,.. but it is a time saver, even on regular cleans. That dreaded baked on bird muck shifts so much faster, and those annoying insect spots melt away much quicker too. It's definitely worth the £1 a day it costs me to run.
As for "just another thing to go wrong",... what's the worst that can happen,.. you go back to cold!!! Even if the heater breaks down, you'll still be able to keep on working!

A lot of new custies think that its a bit odd when you tell them "there's nothing in the water", as they're expecting some kind of advanced specialist chemical solution,... so telling them there's a bit of IPA in the water might put their minds to rest?

[dai]

I can't comment on Isopropanoyl as I won't be trying it till next week,.. but Hot has been a real eye opener for me.



A lot of new custies think that its a bit odd when you tell them "there's nothing in the water", as they're expecting some kind of advanced specialist chemical solution,... so telling them there's a bit of IPA in the water might put their minds to rest?

Or it may be something they can blame you for.
I once had a customer that complained that the chemicals in my water was damaging her glass. I was very happy to tell her that was impossible, as I only use 100% pure water.

The marks on her grass was caused by the fact that she had no guttering, and the water was just dripping onto the grass when it rained. Dai

[Peter Fogwill]

I have messed about with Isopropyl many years ago and for the types of windows I done there was no advantage.  Me and Jeff were both experimenting with it at the same time, and I think Jeff probably came to the same conclusion, did you Jeff?  It does have the advantage of stopping the water freezing, but as far as I am concerned that is about it.

Peter
www.window-tools.com

[LWC]

sorry, im a bit behind

what is being claimed that Isopropyl does?

[Londoner]

Isopropanol is a wetting agent used in the printing industry. It helps the water to "stick" to the printing plate in offset printing.
The theory is that it does the same on glass, and it probably does.

Also, because it is an alcohol it can dissolve away some residues on glass better than pure water would. This again is probably true but given the low concentration and the short time it is in contact with the glass this must be marginal.

Finally, because it is an alcohol it will evaporate more quickly and thereby improve drying and reduce runs. The old window cleaners used to put meths in their buckets for the same reason. Again, given the low concentration its marginal.

[xxmattyxx]

If Iso dissolves mastic, I hope it doesnt dissolve the seals in pumps.


Id be curious to know why people claim that the water used in hot-water systems evaporates quicker than that from cold-water systems.

[Nathanael Jones]

If Iso dissolves mastic, I hope it doesnt dissolve the seals in pumps.

Very good question,.... No point using it if pump life is shortened!

Id be curious to know why people claim that the water used in hot-water systems evaporates quicker than that from cold-water systems.

Simply because it is hot, the glass becomes hot and it steams off the window a little. Also, because heat lowers the surface tension of the water, less sticks to the glass in the first place.

[xxmattyxx]

Id have thought once the water is on the glass its surface area is immense, its simply going to lose any heat it previously had, within seconds. To me the quicker evaporation element just isnt going to happen.

Try this experiment.

2 mugs of water, 1  warm, 1 cold.

Pour both out onto a piece of glass, wood or even the patio. Watch which evaporates quickest.

[Londoner]

I think most of the advantages of a hot water system exists only in the mind of the people trying to sell you a system. The technology is not new, it is used in van mounted carpet cleaning systems so they are just looking for ways to sell more units.

The only advantage, really speaking, might be at the industrial end of the window cleaning spectrum. I can't see much to tempt a domestic cleaner except on a freezing cold morning.

[Nathanael Jones]

I reckon for every hot wfp system being used at the moment there are probably 100 cold ones. The huge prices and silly claims from some suppliers about their branded product has caused a lot of ppl to take quite a negative view of them.

As for the advantage's existing "only in the mind",... try it for a week and then tell me that! 

Bird much used to be hard work for me (a lot of my work is in the countryside, so maybe I face this problem more than others?),.. now its a doddle! I've removed dried on egg with hot wfp, and it does save me time on first cleans.

I don't think a hot system is worth £2500 for a retrofit,.. but a cheap DIY one is something I would highly recommend.

3 years from now, I honestly believe there will be as many hot systems in use as cold systems,..... only time will tell on that one though!