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Dynafoam

Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2003, 09:30:53 pm »
Ken,

What continues to leave me sceptical is that I have tried my CFR hand tool on one of my machines, with one vacuum switched off, whilst cleaning a particularly dirty suite, and the second half of the same cusion with both vacuums running. The results were noticeably different!!

The other factor which concerns me is that I clean quite a few nurseing homes and often, despite a very heavy pre-spray with B153 urine neutraliser and acidic rinse plus odour neutraliser in the tank, the stuff that I drain out stinks to high heaven. I cannot believe that the pre-recirculating filter system could do much for the stench (abeit diluted) of what would then become  cleaning solution.

Perhaps someone knows otherwise? Maybe the additional ozone generator is the answer?

Regards,

John.

Ken Wainwright

  • Posts: 2107
Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2003, 09:53:50 pm »
If your vacuums are in series John, they don't perform very well as single units. But to be honest, I don't know the answers to your questions. Derek may be able to come up with an opinion, or better still Steve Carpenter.
Veni, vidi vici, Vaxi
I came, I saw, I conquered, I cleaned up!

Derek

Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2003, 07:58:29 am »
Hi Guys

I have in the past used many different machines most of which had their twin vacuums in parallel.
At one point I aquired an excellent make of machine with its vacuums in series and personally I couldn't get on with it as I felt its performance sadly lacking.

Having said that I know of many who swear by the series system and at a 'day out' earlier this year the two types of setup were run side by side with relatively little difference in drying times.

I have never used my CFR machine in the scenario you mentioned John but I would, if I was doing work on a regular basis in a situation like that, go for the CFR with the added ozone generator built in.

Young Steven Carpenter will be able to give you chapter and verse on how and why.

Regards
Derek

Mr._One_Step

Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2003, 08:37:29 pm »
I too was sceptical of the portable CFR system with its single vacuum and the fact that it recycles its cleaning solution. This was back in 1994 when they were looking for a main distributor here and although I never went down that route or even had a demonstration I found the concept interesting. ‘The cleaning power and flexibility of a truck mounted carpet-cleaning system that could also clean hard floors’. A couple of years ago I was reintroduced to CFR products through Amtech UK and purchased an Altra Pro 1000 (1000 psi) and Pro Station 400 (400 psi). I was amazed at their performance and versatility.

The patented continuous flow tooling injects atomised water in and through carpet fibres and fabrics to thoroughly wash them without the solution penetrating the backing or through into the foam filling in upholstery. Carpets can be rinsed at pressures of up to 1000 psi depending on the model purchased without over wetting or the need to use high temperatures (electric heat exchangers cannot keep up with the water flow at 1000psi). This gives dramatically reduced drying times because most of the solution is recovered instantly.

You do not need buckets to empty or refill the machine, the single tank system can be filled through its vacuum/solution hose and when the machine needs emptying it has a hard floor machine style drain hose, which can be directed over a toilet or drain. As the machine is a single tank design with internal filters it’s important to fill the machine to its fill level for optimum vacuum operation. The water level should be checked every half an hour and topped up if necessary otherwise vacuum performance can be reduced if the machine is allowed to empty. On the third to fifth top up the machine should be drained and refilled with fresh water.

The system actually recycles the cleaning solution up to 7 times through a series of filters that remove the soil with 99% + effectiveness. This combined with the unique continuous flow tooling it can recover up to 95% of the cleaning solution used. This allows the system to deep clean large carpeted areas quickly ensuring rapid dry times with maximum soil removal. The cleaning solution eventually becomes discoloured through the presence of natural water-soluble dyes found in soil from silicates and iron oxides. This doesn’t affect the ‘clean’ because of CFR’s exceptional recovery rate.

If the suspended soils present in the solution/vacuum tank block the filter screen then the pump will automatically shut down so that the operator can empty the machine.

It is a gross misconception that the CFR system cleans with dirty water. If this were the case it would make little difference to the soiled appearance of a carpet. I use this system to deep clean all wet cleanable carpet types, rugs, upholstery, curtains & hard floors that have soil loads from light to heavy.

The Altra 1000 extractor with a CAT 1000-psi pump & single 3-stage vac comfortably operates at 120ft and is well designed and easy to move around. Although it weighs 135lbs you can lift it in & out of a vehicle with ease because of the loading wheels present on the hand bar. With a tank full of water I can easily clean 300 plus metres of heavily soiled carpet and restore its appearance without having to stop and completely empty and refill the machine.


Also odour-causing problems including urine are removed, filtered effectively & deodorised with CFR odour removal products. They also manufacture the system with enclosed ozone assisted cleaning facility, which cleans, sanitises and deodorizes as it cleans. This is particularly beneficial when cleaning in environments such as hospitals, nursing homes, food & beverage processing plants where bio-contamination is a major concern.

The concept is totally different even down to operating the wand in a forward motion with the solution trigger on but it works!

Regards

Steve

Dynafoam

Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2003, 09:37:21 pm »
Derek,

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

Some years ago I did build a T/M machine with an ozone generator attatched, the gas being pumped through a secondary supply tank. Not totally sucessful, partly due to the unreliabily of the generator and partly due to the fact that (unlike the CFR machine0, mine did not recirculate and consequently the absorbtion rate was certainly lower.

Regarding the serial/parallel configurations, I once had a Prochem steampro which had an external manifold, whereby one could switch between serial ( for maximum vacuum potential) or parallel (for maximum airflow).

I found the paral lel configuration usefull for curtains and the sections of a suite carcase which had no padding behind the face fabric.

For most carpets I used the higher vacuum afforded by serial connection. Best results on carpets when useing the higher air flow option requred a slightly different wand technique, the attack angle being varied to a greater extent than 'normal' on both foreward and backward strokes to unduce greater lateral airflow through the pile - in some respects similar to the wash action of the CFR wand.

since I was used to both options I would say that I would achieve roughly the same degree of dryness with either setup but where there was a high degree of impacted soil at pile-base, my prefered option resulted in an overall cleaner carpet.

Regards,

John.

Dynafoam

Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2003, 09:51:07 pm »
Steve,

So you don't know much about this machine  ;D

Thank you for taking the time to reply in such depth.

I had not concidered the effect of haveing a small airgap above the solution, thereby reduceing the 'elasticity' of the vacuum system, so accept your assertion that 120 feet opperating range.

Karl may well owe you a drink!

John.

Derek

Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2003, 10:49:05 pm »
Hi John

I also had one of those Prochem machines with the interchangable vacuum configuration some years ago... I found it worked very well indeed...why on earth did they stop producing these dual system machines

Derek

Dynafoam

Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2003, 11:56:11 pm »
Hi Derek,

Dynafoam make them ! (well made one)  ;D

John.

Paul Davidson

  • Posts: 135
Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2003, 12:53:02 am »
The Amtech Cfr machines look realy impressive high tech machines that would be easy to market with fantastic drying times etc, but a couple of things come to mind;

1) How does cleaning times compare with other powerfull machines?

2) Is it easier work having to push instead of pulling the wand?

Derek

Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2003, 08:11:22 am »
Hi Harvey

The concept of the CFR tooling is that the water is jetted into the fibres at an angle under pressure. The fibres get thoroughly rinsed without the penetration into the backing areas.
Once the carpet/upholstery has been cleaned there feels no significant difference as the various fibres are as equally wet as when using a conventional machine and tool.
E.g.  I cleaned a turkish rug yesterday on an ordinary chipboard piece of timber, when it had been cleaned/rinsed neither the back of the rug or the chipboard was even a slighty bit wet... this at 400 psi

As far as the wand being pushed...Yes, it does take some getting used to. After all the years of pulling, it seemed unnatural somehow... the situation after a few months, however, is completely the reverse...the conventional wand now seems unnatural.

Same goes for the CFR handtool... the first time I used it I felt it was such an awkward piece of kit as the tool is quite long...now I use nothing else.

So you can teach an 'old dog' (that's me) new tricks  ;)

Regards
Derek

Paul Davidson

  • Posts: 135
Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2003, 10:31:51 am »
Thanks Derek,

Can you cover the same floor areas with a CFR machine in similar or slower times than a powerfull HWE machine?
Which CFR machine have got?

Thanks

Derek

Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2003, 09:10:40 pm »
Hi harvey

To be honest I do actually find it quicker...

Mind you I do prevac, prespray, agitate and rinse as part of my procedure whichever machine I use.

I have the Pro-Station 400 with a 33 ft hose and combi tool with a 25ft extension hose. I prefer the roller wand to the glide wand....a purely personal preference here.

Regards
Derek

Paul Davidson

  • Posts: 135
Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2003, 10:12:45 pm »
Derek

when i used to clean carpets 10 years or so ago, using a wand was quite hard work as i had to work the carpet quite hard sometimes (like scrubbing the carpet with the floor wand), it sounds that with rollers and glides you dont have to phisically work to hard?
Not saying you dont work hard mind you know what i mean though?

Silly question, you all talk about aggitating the carpet! can you explain this a little better for me please
Thanks

Derek

Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2003, 10:31:23 am »
Hi Harvey

Agitation....one of the elements of the 'cleaning pie' not to be underestimated.

Rather than scrub seven bells out of the carpet alter your tactics slightly

Vacuum, obviously, to remove the loose soil which constitutes the majority of the soil present.

Prespray the 'chemical', preferably 'warm/hot', and give it 'time' to work.

'Agitate' the chemical.
I, personally, use a host machine with contra rotating brushes but many use the Sebo Duo for this purpose as they are much cheaper to buy.

Rinse out...

You will have completed an extra function but the time taken up will be compensated by the reduced time in which you need to rinse plus drying will be much quicker as you will be using less rinse solution.

There you have it..all the key elements.
Chemical, Heat, Agitation and Time.
(C.H.A.T. The cleaning pie)

I hope this helps

Derek

Ken Wainwright

  • Posts: 2107
Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2003, 12:44:56 pm »
That man from Leicester certainly knows his stuff. How long you been cleaning Derek?

Just a small point though. After applying your pre-spray, agitate first then leave to dwell. If you are using an enzyme solution, you may need as long as about 20 minutes, so make sure it doesn't dry out during this time (no blowers and draw curtains if there's strong sunlight in the room).

If you don't have a Host type of machine, you'll need a carpet brush (a bit like a broom) but not a rake. Brush really well. Especially on larger and  commercial areas, use a low speed rotary machine with a scrubbing or shampoo brush. Even a 3M skimming pad or a bonnet mop will provide excellent agitation prior to extraction. Do all this correctly and you'll never need to scrub again with your wand.
Veni, vidi vici, Vaxi
I came, I saw, I conquered, I cleaned up!

Derek

Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2003, 03:51:49 pm »
Hi Kenneth

I have been cleaning 'nearly' as long as you Ken.

Point taken about dwell times... Enzyme cleaners do need about twenty minutes to be effective...but then I rarely use enzyme cleaners....am I forgiven? :-[

Derek

Ken Wainwright

  • Posts: 2107
Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2003, 07:12:21 pm »
No way DB. I want to see you on your hands and knees first ;)
Veni, vidi vici, Vaxi
I came, I saw, I conquered, I cleaned up!

Derek

Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2003, 11:39:15 am »
You come across as a 'hard/cruel' man kenneth ;)

Its a good job I know you better...

Have a nice weekend..or whats left of it
Derek

Ken Wainwright

  • Posts: 2107
Re: Help wanted choosing type of machine
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2003, 07:39:31 pm »
Thanks DB

I've had a brilliant weekend. Spent quite a lot of money but it's been superb. All will be revealed in due course.
Ta Ta :)
Veni, vidi vici, Vaxi
I came, I saw, I conquered, I cleaned up!