[Macarthur]

One of the jobs I had today (Lounge Carpet) came across a slightly different kind of carpet. A lovely light coloured slightly unusual Axminster style pattern.

Alarm bells started ringing as I remembered the previous topic on this forum regarding Wiltons.

So as I usually ask the customer anyway about the carpet type, asked her. To which the reply came: Not to sure, It`s wool I think, I know its an expensive one, I think it`s a Wilton or something like that.

I checked underneath, a loose piece which she pointed out to me, and the same pattern as the top was underneath.

I asked if she knew if the carpet was a Belgian or English but unfortunately she did'nt know.

I explained to her the potential dangers if I were to clean it, and we both agreed that I would not to go ahead.

I did remove some stains and a piece of chewing gum from other carpets around the house for which she paid me a small fee.

Did I do the right thing to leave well alone being completely unsure of the difference between an English and a Belgian.

She has asked me if I know of any alternative ways to clean her carpet to which I replyed I would do my best to find out for her and get back if I can.

Can anyone here offer any advice on alternative cleaning methods. Your help will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Nigel.

[John_Flynn]

Why didn't you do a burn test to identify the fibre of the carpet??

[Paul Redden Countryfresh]

defintely sounds like a belgian wilton to me.......you will find no problem with the majority, then one day , one will catch you out and shrink!

They can shrink an inch over six foot. I've seen them buckle as well.It's polyprop not wool as most people think. you could either bonnet buff it,dry powder clean it, or spray shampoo agitate and cold rinse it off.

hope this helps    paul

[Ian Rochester]

I would reckon it being a Belgian, generally if I was going to clean it, which we usually do without any problems, I would first secure it along its length with ring nails every 6 - 8" before starting cleaning, water temp no more than 55 deg, reduced water pressure and clean as normal using a scrubba deluxe or similar.  Do one ore two extra dry passes to get it as dry as possible and if time put the Turbo on to it.

I would only walk away if - it was in a really bad condition and would require a lot of reworking to get it clean  - or if it had been badly fitted to start with.

If I have any doubts I get them to call my mate the carpet fitter, who comes out and refits and secures the carpet for them and charges them direct.

Never had a carpet of any type shrink on me, and have cleaned several BW's more than once. "Touch wood!!!"

With BW's you do not want to be getting the cotton warp on the backing wet, it is this that shrinks and causes problem.  They will always go along the length and not the width but you may see some buckling along the edges.

When they do shrink it will not be along the whole length but only in a localised area, normally along traffic lines or spot marks where you have had to work harder to get it clean and the solution has got through to the back of the carpet.


Ian

[Dave_Lee]

Trouble is when they do unevenly shrink, they buckle too. When checking the quality of the fitting, check that it has been tension fitted, i.e. cut slightly oversize and the excess compressed into the small gully between the gripperrod and skirting board - if it has been net fitted, i.e. cut net to the skirting board and is just sitting on top of the gripper, it is not secure and will be a problem. Even if it is tension fitted, the gripper must be secure as the contraction. when shrinkage occurs, can rip the gripper from the floor, especially on solid floors where the gripper has only been nailed and not also glued down.
I just qualify the possible problems and then its up to them whether to risk it or not.
Dave.

[Dynafoam]

Dave,

It is wise to check that it is not net fitted, but one of the recommendations for the fitting of these carpets is that they are not installed under tension.

Other recommendations for the installer is that they are acclimatised in the room for 7 days , loosely rolled or for 3 days loose-laid. It is also recommended that double grippers are used.

We all know that these recommendations are generally ignored, and in at least one instance, for understandable reasons.

[Ken Wainwright]

Nigel

I encountered similar circumstances only yesterday. Traditional woven panel design, madam knew little of the carpet. Not very old, so little flattening, but considerable light fading near the window. I suspected Belgian Wilton but needed reassurance. A simple float test confirmed a polyprop pile. Out came the Dry Fusion. As Madam had an appointment at the hairdressers, she didn't see the completed job, so phoned last night, full of praise for the excellent job. It was unnecessary as I know how good I am :

For the newer and less experienced people to our industry, may I suggest a simpler approach to the Belgian Wilton scenario. There are several carpets highly prone to shrinkage. Belgian Wilton is the most common at present. But you may also come across an older acrylic copy of Brintons Bell Twist or an acrylic Axminster. The common denominators are synthetic pile (it melts and leaves a hard plastic ball, wool leaves a soft ash) and woven construction (woven into jute and other yarns). Wool piled wovens may shrink, synthetic versions WILL shrink is my approach. I treat all with caution but synthetics have less room for error, hence low moisture cleaning.

Naturally, the above is nowhere near all encompassing, but is a good guide for day to day use.

Safe and happy cleaning
Ken

[Dave_Lee]

John, You are absolutely right. What I meant to say was compression fitted, i.e. tucked in. I remember when they first came and the fitters fitted them in the normal way under slight tension (they never did have much give in them) and as you indicated, due to the change in envirement, would quite often shrink overnight pulling the gripper with it. One of the biggest binds Ive found when fitting them is their annoying tendency to bulge at the edges along the lengh even after counter shaping.
Dave.

[Macarthur]

Thank you all for your advice.

I have read alot lately about Dry Fusion and envirodri, and it seems in certain situations these machines are best applied. Perhaps next year some time I will invest in one of these machines, although which I am not sure, need to investigate further. Can anyone give me some idea of prices and best possible websites to check out.

Thank you,

Nigel. 

[Fintan_Coll]

Texatherm is another system to check out.

[Macarthur]

Thanks Fintan, I'll also check out.

Nigel.

[Kinver_Clean]

Look at Charly Pads from Solutions.I have had some cracking results where wet cleaning was not on. Cheaper than the other systems if you are not doing very much LM cleaning.
Trevor

[woodman]

I would agree LM for Belguim Wiltons to avoid any possible problems. I use Texatherm but have also HWE cleaned before I had the Texatherm system and to my knowledge have never shrunk one simply by being extra careful.
Using the LM system you just get on with it.

I think its important to realise that BW was not designed for the british market and was never intended to be fitted on underlay and gripper.In europe you will see its stuck down directly to the floor and they have no problem with shrinkage as such.

It was imported here by the large retailers as a cheap alternative to the 'real thing' and as we demand a better quality fit it was adapted for fitting on underlay and gripper but this is not the recommended procedure.

Some time ago there was an argument that if you as a carpet cleaner shrunk it you had a reasonable cause not to accept responsibilty as it had not been fitted as recommended and I know many did just this.Over the years of course as our type of fitting has become the norm this has now changed and onus is now on us to take resonable care when cleaning or else.

[Dave_Lee]

Or, as is most often the case the last one to touch it, gets the blame if something goes wrong. I think it is also important for anyone new to CC to really understand that any system - no matter how powerful or low on moisture, is useless in untrained hands. The machines make a big diference, of course they do, but the operator makes ALL the diference. I know of several cases where operators using low moisture systems have overwet carpets, in one case taking almost four days to dry. If this had been a BW, well you can imagine!
Dave.

[Len Gribble]

Keep shrinking those BW or any other carpet, for hire carpet stretcher London, Surrey, west Sussex and Kent and not to forget Essex.

Pm’s only

Len

[Dave_Lee]

Len,
As you may know I also do carpet fitting and Ive found that BW's once shrunk do not restretch like true Wiltons or Axminsters. Of those I have managed to get somewhere with, due to the diferential shrinkage, ridges form along tension lines. In the case where power stretchers are used to persuade it to stretch, (imo) they do not actually stretch but form tiny tears along the lengh of the tension lines. Later these tears break down and the carpet becomes rucked similar to delamination. A truly horrible carpet in my opinion.
Dave.

[Len Gribble]

Dave

Not questing your fitting ability but do you follow fitting procedure for BW?

Len

[Shaun_Ashmore]

I get loads of hot soapy water and pour it on then scrub it hard with my yard brush, I put the customer out of their misery and take the guess work away by shrinking it! applying protector to a smaller polypropolene carpet therefore becomes cheaper

Jasonb Shaun

[Dynafoam]

 

[Michel Roberts]

I have been following this thread with some intrest but been keeping out of it.

Has chanch would have it however I just fixed one today, shrunk 2 1/2 - 3" in the lengh over  12/13 ft. However As I have just come back from the pub  I will use my one finguerd typing skills to explain it later if anyone is interested.

Michel