[Moderator David@stives]

I think there is a popular misconseption about cowboy window cleaners, I think other trades suffer a lot worse.

Where i live and work i dont know any cowboys, i have travelled the country and met 100s of window cleaners and i must say 99% seem genuine and look like they are legit.

I dont think the general public tolerate dodgy characters, so if they do turn up they are generaly not around for long.

I think it would be far simpler to ban cold calling, that way you could only build a decent business through reccommendations and advertising, which the rogue element would struggle with both ways.

I now run a sizeable business which has been built on trust, reccommendations and advertising, in 10 years i have very rarely knocked on a door, maybe the odd next door to where i was already working if i found out some one new had just moved in.

Come on give us window cleaners a break, we are not an all round bad bunch, there are just some old fashioned misconseptions usually in the minds of some media outlets which have given our trade bad press in the past.

In all my days never have i felt mis-trusted etc by any customer.

Dave

[matt]

im undecided

on 1 hand you have, YES, it will keep the eastern europeans who will do a 10 quid house for 4 quid as they dont pay tax etc etc

NO, because i know the council will not bother to enforce it, ive worked for the council as a carpenter and i know what they are like, this will be the case, they will give some1 a part time job ( say 15 hours a week ) who will sit at a desk ( or even work from home ) and not be out on the road checking, they will spend the time puching around paper and watching the clock

[DASERVICES]

I take everyones views about Council and know what obstacles that can be faced but there is always a way around it.

Today's meeting was a breath of fresh air, it was the first time that licensed window cleaners can now see change coming.

The Council are now bending over backwards in working with the SLWCN and its members. In todays meeting the Council invited the Town Centre Manager who will now will be discussing this with local shops and supermarkets. The Police were also represented and it took some persuation and in the end they will be lauching an operation.

The next meeting other Police representatives will be attending and local industry will be invited.

One thing us licensed window cleaners have acknowledged is that we have to work with the local authorities.

In summary it can be done and now we will await the results on what impact it will have on our industry.

One last word for Dave, if you heard the experiences today you would then see action needs to be taken and finally it is.

Many thanks for your comments.

[Moderator David@stives]

Doug

I agree action was needed in Scotland you had lisencing which seemed to be in dissaray.

So well done.

Dave

[Captain Scarlet]

People are still voting yes 

[Stevie G]

and so they should

[Captain Scarlet]

Heres something I have heard nobody mention. Yes Scotland is large size wise but in comparison to England it has a tiny population:

Population of England, Nr Ireland, Scotland and Wales as of 2006:

60,587,600

Population of each individual country:

England:50,762,900
Nr Ireland:1,741,600
Scotland:5,116,900
Wales:2,965,900

So Englands population is 10 times more than Scotlands, that means 10 times if not alot more Window Cleaners. Do you really think this would work properly? Luke

[williamx]

im undecided

on 1 hand you have, YES, it will keep the eastern europeans who will do a 10 quid house for 4 quid as they dont pay tax etc etc

NO, because i know the council will not bother to enforce it, ive worked for the council as a carpenter and i know what they are like, this will be the case, they will give some1 a part time job ( say 15 hours a week ) who will sit at a desk ( or even work from home ) and not be out on the road checking, they will spend the time puching around paper and watching the clock

A licence scheme, is not going to stop the Eastern Europeans from working for peanuts, they will have a licence because they are legally allowed to work anywhere in the EC, and they will charge less than a Uk citizen because all they want to do is earn and save some money, then return home, hopefully to a better life.

An illegal worker has a choice, he can steal and commit crime or work illegally just so he can eat and survive. what option would you do if you were him? and would a Window Cleaning Licence scheme deter you?.

[matt]

im undecided

on 1 hand you have, YES, it will keep the eastern europeans who will do a 10 quid house for 4 quid as they dont pay tax etc etc

NO, because i know the council will not bother to enforce it, ive worked for the council as a carpenter and i know what they are like, this will be the case, they will give some1 a part time job ( say 15 hours a week ) who will sit at a desk ( or even work from home ) and not be out on the road checking, they will spend the time puching around paper and watching the clock

A licence scheme, is not going to stop the Eastern Europeans from working for peanuts, they will have a licence because they are legally allowed to work anywhere in the EC, and they will charge less than a Uk citizen because all they want to do is earn and save some money, then return home, hopefully to a better life.

An illegal worker has a choice, he can steal and commit crime or work illegally just so he can eat and survive. what option would you do if you were him? and would a Window Cleaning Licence scheme deter you?.

BUT

a man in a uniform ( traffic warden style ) checking he has a licence just might put him off doing it long term and that would surely help the legit guys who pay tax  etc etc

[williamx]

It hasn't stopped the bogus taxi driver, and their are thousands of uniforms about.

[simon knight]

All this licencing malarky is just some people wanting to be busy-bodies.  We've got enough bureaucracy in this country without the the need for yet more red tape that will be nigh on impossible to either police or enforce.

Licencing will just penalise the legit guys. The dole men and cash only merchants will carry on regardless.

Also there must be plenty of legit guys who just about make a living from w/c and pay their tax and NI. Bring in licencing and suddenly these guys will be tempted to go over to the dark side....and frankly I couldn't blame them!

[groundhog]

It would just be another needless expense, I vote a big NO!

[simon knight]

I've just had a look at the SLWCN website. Under Licensing by Area I see that around half the w/c up there are still unlicensed, although East Renfrewshire Council have 77% unlicensed,  Edinburgh 82%,  Fife 70%,  Glasgow 93%...the list goes on!!

So it's hardly been a roaring success since it's introduction in March 2006.

If it's obviously not working oop north what makes anyone think it'll work down south?

I bet the guys who have licensed themselves and are paying the various Councils fees are now kicking themselves when they look at the SLWCN statistics and see the number of "cowboys" who are merrily working away without a license and saving themselves a fair few £ into the bargain.

Too late guys: I think it might be hard to de-register now that you're on the Councils books.

[DASERVICES]

Simon, SLWCN is now a success. I would say your comment was correct some time back but we now know more than the Councils

It has taken a long time in coming but we had to do a lot of research etc...

Name me one association that has managed to get the Police, Council, City Centre Manager all around the table.

Yes it was not working but it will. Why because all licensed window cleaners are working together. SLWCN is not about individuals it's everyone that is licensed and that is why it will work.

It has been one hard slog but we have got there in the end. The fix will not be over night but it will come. And the membership is now increasing with new members each day as everyone now has belief that change is coming.

Soon there will be a number published to report unlicensed window cleaners, and the operator will not know what has hit them

The Councils have given the SLWCN their full backing and are now working with the SLWCN in publishing a leaflet urging householders to check the list of licenced window cleaners. There is a lot of other things happening but these will be released after futher meetings which we will be holding.

That is how far we have come, and another note we are asking them to sell wfp with regards H&S issues to help those who have invested in wfp. The list goes on.

I undersatnd all the negative thoughts but there is always a way, you just need to look for it.

Cheers

Doug

[williamx]

Doug

What figures do you have regarding those window cleaners who have been caught without a licence.

Were they taken to court? what size was their fine or were they sent to prison, if so for how long or were they let off with a caution.

Also how many of them have carried on working without a licence even thogh they have been caught before?.

And most importantly, how many customers have sacked their unlicenced cleaner and now use a licenced one instead?.

[DASERVICES]

Hi William,

We have no figures as we asked this question which went to the Police Forces Unit. Civic crimes are not recorded.

There have been some people taken to court where they were fined etc.. but speaking to the enforcement officer some still carried on working.

In West Lothian we worked with the Council and distributed some leaflets, this did have an impact with people ringing the Council and then sacking their window cleaner.

All parties have acknowledged that there needs to be change, one of which is the Police will be speaking to Crown Office if on the spot fines can be done for example £100. The law does state that you can fine the person upto a a max of £2000.

The Council are all for making the public aware which will be first started with a leaflet campaign and then followed by a press release. The key to this is getting the public on our side, this is what the Council, Police and SLWCN will be working on in the next coming months.

It's going to be trial and error until we find what works, there are still other areas of the licence that needs to be addressed like prices etc...

It's not the perfect system at present but if run properly it will be the best system around and even unlicensed window cleaners would be all for it. Their main gripe is why pay for something if it does not work but if it did they would be all for it.

The key to this is public knowledge, we will not win them all over but if we managed then to value their window cleaner and pay him what he is worth then we will have accomplished a lot.

[williamx]

Personally I do not think that a licence is needed, but if it is to happen then there are parts that need changing.

There is only 1 licence and you can work anywere in the UK with it.

Courses in Health & Safety are a part of it.

The licence also has to cover the tools that the cleaner uses, for example wfp uses must have their water tanks fixed to their vechcle safely and ladder men must use ladders that are fit for the purpose and safety devices are used with them.

The licence fee must not be a way for the authorities to make money, any profits from it must be returned to the window cleaning industry.

If a window cleaner has a crinimal record, then that must not be an automatic refusal of the licence.

A training programme must also be part of the licence, that way the customers knows that their cleaner is capable of doing the job correctly.

[Moderator David@stives]

Doug


Have you considered becoming a trade association ?.

Dave

[DASERVICES]

Hi William totally agree, with our licence we have to abide by HSE regulations but as we all know HSE don't even know what that is.

With regards to crimes in the past the Council cannot take into consideration spent convictions as it goes against the rehib act.

[DASERVICES]

Dave,

We are looking into something as we are now coming too big, our expectation is we will have around 2-300 members in the next few months.

On the other hand it's costing us money but we had to make sure this was a winnable case which it is now. We have a few things in the pipeline but it will be around April before we get things moving.

To date it has been a fact and probing mission but now it is going big.