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Kingfisher-CCS

  • Posts: 56
Employee not giving notice
« on: October 19, 2007, 07:34:40 pm »
Hi people,
one of my employees texted me the other day to say she wouldn't be working again. I texted back saying does that mean your not working the weeks notice?
She texted back 'no, sorry'

She has signed the contract of employment which states that she should give 1 weeks notice, she's worked for me for 4 months, had 1 absence which she didn't notify me off beforehand and 2 holidays which will be unpaid as she hadn't accrued any.

She's texting now asking when she'll be paid. I was just wondering what to do about her leaving me in the lurch and breaching her employmwnt contract.

Can I keep her money and go to the pub with it? Just kidding, but it does seem unfair that employees are protected from this kinda thing and employers are stuck in the siht!

Anyone have any thoughts, or should I give her the damn money n forget about her!

Thanks guys
Paul

D woods

Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2007, 07:46:10 pm »
Hi Paul
I am not sure if you have to legally pay her, but in this situation which I have had many times I always pay them up as I just don't think it is worth the grief.

Scotbrite

  • Posts: 140
Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2007, 08:08:09 pm »
Hi Paul,
I would say that she is entitled to be paid any money she is due,it could be a minefield to not do so. However i have always argued the point of including a clause in their C.oE. that when employment ends they would be deducted the required amount of pay (in liu of notice) if not worked, but i am not sure how this would stand up at a tribunal,
Regards,
Ron

Kingfisher-CCS

  • Posts: 56
Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2007, 08:26:42 pm »
Thanks for the replies guys

She's left me in the crap cus I've always struggled to get someone there due to location and I can't get there myself cus it's a 40 mile round trip since I moved house.

Couldn't make it there today so the client is probably gonna be getting annoyed even though I have explained the situation to him

Mrs Nicholls

  • Posts: 432
Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2007, 08:38:40 pm »
i would just pay her whats she is due, saves any hassle, did she return all her uniform etc? this can be deducted if you have this mentioned in your terms of employment if she doesnt return them.

I just had a cleaner leave me, she was only with us a few weeks though, her mum txt me to say her daughter didnt want to do the job anymore so wont be coming in again, but wanted to make sure she would get paid. (she was 2 weeks under 17) Ive paid her whats shes due plus her 1 hour hol she gained on pro rata hol scheme. she was a good worker aswell.

Bertie Boo

Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2007, 09:13:33 pm »
Quite frankly whether she's left you in  the $hit or not if she's made her mind up she doesnt want the job then you are better off not having her with you.......how well do you think she is going to fulfill the cleaning jobs you'd allocated to her during her notice period.......?

Unless you know your EXACT legal position i wouldn't take chances on not paying her for anything that you personally feel you don't want to pay her.

Also can you explain how -in 4 months- she had not accrued 'enough' holiday pay to cover the  2 days holiday (i presume by 2 days you mean 2 x her usual daily hours).

Best wishes

Stephen

Kingfisher-CCS

  • Posts: 56
Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2007, 10:17:54 pm »
sorry bertie boo, I meant 4 weeks (i was thinking in my head whether to put 1 month or 4 weeks, then I must of unconsciously wrote half of each!)

I'm gonna pay her anyway, she's lost her attendance bonus anyway so it's minimum wage.

before I set on employees things were great, now I am so stressed out with finding new staff, training them, all the paperwork, clients moaning about daft things etc etc etc. Oh well, that's the business were in I suppose ::)

Mrs Nicholls

  • Posts: 432
Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2007, 10:37:51 pm »
dont let the £$%tards grind u down !  ;D lifes too short.

We have had a week from hell this past week ,and its all to do with employees, ive even been cleaning myself because staff have let us down at the last minute. They wont last long if they make me work 15 + hour days ! some people forget that running a business isnt just about the cleaning. Obviously its a big part of it but theres all the stuff that goes on behind the scenes aswell.

if she never handed in her notice does she forfeit her hol shes due? and just gets whats shes worked for? im sure i heard something about this ages ago though i could have it wrong though.

Kingfisher-CCS

  • Posts: 56
Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2007, 11:58:30 pm »
yeah I did a search first and I'm sure someone wrote that they forfeit their holiday pay if they don't give notice.

I once worked for a company and they changed the supervisor, she was horrible and came in to the place I cleaned and had a right go at me for stupid little things (mostly things I wasn't told I had to do; the previous supervisor was rubbish and didn't even bring me cleaning supplies most of the time!)

Anyway, I handed in my notice and she rang me up threatening that they wouldn't pay me if I didn't work the week's notice (I did say in my resignation letter that I'd work my notice but, as I said, she was a nightmare!)

I don't think you are legally entitled to not pay them for what they've done, but it sounds justified to not pay them the holiday pay

Bertie Boo

Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2007, 12:41:45 am »
I don't think you are legally entitled to not pay them for what they've done, but it sounds justified to not pay them the holiday pay

To me the key words here are 'think' and 'sounds'...i really think that anyone who plans to withold payments made to staff should find out for SURE what the legal stance is.

There is a formula to work out how much holiday pay a member of staff earns each week (or indeed per hours worked) and when a member of staff leaves it is the usual practice to pay them for holiday they have accrued and not taken OR take those amount of hours off the notice period, or if the employee owes the company for holiday they've taken and not accrued then that amount comes out of the final pay BUT! this is only what usually happens, i have no idea whether this is a legal requirment or not. This is why issues like this need expert legal advice.

Stephen

Art

  • Posts: 3688
Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2007, 12:47:36 am »
Holiday pay that has been accrued has to be paid

J. Deans

Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2007, 07:37:53 pm »
The first thing to remember is a contract of employment is only enforceable if it complies with employment contract law. The same applies to Conditions of Employment. You cannot state that an employee gives a weeks notice - if the law says otherwise - and in this case (from what you have said) it does!

For this reason it is critical that you get the amount of time she worked for you right, because the law says that neither the employer nor the employee has to give any notice if they have worked for you for less than a month. You are saying it is 4 weeks - so it is very close. After a month, 1 weeks notice must be given by either party.
The easiest way to look at it is take to the actual date she started - say 20th September - one month would be if she worked up until yesterday - 19th October.

Either way, you cannot legally transfer a debt of not giving notice over to witholding holiday pay. You would be breaking the law. If you want recompense for your trouble, you will need to haul her through the civil court!

Now that the annual holiday entitlement is 24 days, she has accrued up to 2 days in the time she was with you. To find out the exact amount, use the tool posted in 'Holiday Pay Tool' on here.
Now, you say she has already taken 2 days holidays, if you did not pay her for these, they are classed as unpaid absences and she still has to be paid holiday pay. If you did, then she has no holiday entitlement remaining, so there is no problem there. You may even find that she hadn't accrued a full 2 days. In this case, work out the holiday entitlement in hours and the hours she actually took off and then can you legally deduct the difference from her final pay.

Finally, you should know that the actual amount of money you give as holiday pay can be worked out as an average of the hours she worked in those four weeks. If she had two days absence, this will work out in your favour. For example: Lets say your employee is full-time and works 8 hours per day. She did 40 hours in the first week, had a day off in the second week - 32 hours, another 40 in the third, another day off in the fourth - 32. That's a total of 144 hours in 20 days, so the average is 7.2 hours per day. Now lets say she did accrue exactly 2 days holiday pay (to keep it simple) you only have to pay her for 7.2 hours for each day, instead of the normal 8.

Adjust this to suit your exact situation.

(EDIT)
I have made some assumptions here and tried them out on the calculator:
Your employee started with you on 24th September and you got the text yesterday 19th October - so she worked for exactly 4 weeks - no notice required by law.
Her holiday entitlement works out to 1.6 days.
So in the above example, you only have to pay her a total of 12.8 holiday hours partly because of the 16 she actually took off as unpaid. So you can legally deduct 3.2 hours from her holiday entitlement in her final wages.

Now simply pay her for the hours she has done, and forget about it. Concentrate on getting another cleaner - quick!


vangaurd

  • Posts: 625
Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2007, 10:41:34 am »
she has breached her contract no pay
it happend to me when i managed a shop for my niece i left she owed me a weeks money and she refused to pay me as i would not work my notice

Spursboy1972

  • Posts: 679
Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2007, 10:56:57 am »
Unfortunately employment law is very heavily loaded in favour of the employee.

The law states that whether she gave notice or not she is entitled to be paid for any work carried out. That is a legal view too. I have seen it happen where someone works one day or half a day and then quits yet still has to be paid.

We mused to tell them no way as in breach of contract etc, etc.
Only when pushed by CAB or someone official did we relent and pay.

The law as they say is an "ass"
Clear Vision~"The Difference is Clear"

Southampton- Hampshire

Joe H

Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2007, 12:17:19 pm »
If you join the Federation of Small Businesses (cost me about £70 per year - you get free legal advice from a firm of solicitors.
(also "free" banking thro the Copperative Bank and lots of other benefits).

Bertie Boo

Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2007, 09:17:08 pm »
she has breached her contract no pay
it happend to me when i managed a shop for my niece i left she owed me a weeks money and she refused to pay me as i would not work my notice

Ah, that clears things up then  ::) ::) ::)

Stephen

Spotless UK

  • Posts: 11
Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2007, 02:21:45 pm »
I have it written into my employees contracts that if they leave without notice they will have £100 deducted from their final pay. It is a good deterrent and I have actually made the deduction a number of times. I have even been in two situations where ACAS have agreed that it is an acceptable deduction under contract law.

We also make deductions for training, since we have improved the skill and hence the employability of the person (if the employee leaves before three months is up) and for non return of uniform etc. All of this is contained in the employees handbook.

Hope this helps....

J. Deans

Re: Employee not giving notice
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2007, 07:03:19 pm »
Hunny is absolutely right - so long as they have been in your employ for more than one month.
Deductions for things like uniform (because they were made specifically for the employee - or they did not return them - are also legal) But you still cannot withold an employees HOLIDAY PAY for ANY of these reasons!