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The Great One

  • Posts: 12722
TUPE Query...
« on: September 07, 2007, 03:34:53 pm »
Hi guys

I have just got a contract for a bar ( 2 staff, 2 hours each, 2 x per week)

The new owner is unhappy with the team & company in there. He has just taken over the bar. I have told him that the same cleaners may have to stay on as per TUPE.

Query is...

Do I or he have to ask for the other company for the staff details and offer TUPE, acn he just cancel their employment with the bar as he has taken it on as a self employed person?

Thanks

Regards

Martin 8)

mxg

  • Posts: 187
Re: TUPE Query...
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2007, 07:04:12 pm »
Martin

In these circumstances, this is how I approach it :

We always submit a written proposal to avoid any potential "misunderstanding" later on down the line and in each proposal we have a section called "Assumptions" which we just include a list of bullet points. And one of our standard points is "TUPE will not apply"

I would argue that its not your place to know the finer details of the existing contract. This is obviously the responsibility of the manager of the business, new or not. Like you I do inform them very briefly that TUPE legislation exists but after that its up to them.

So far we have not had any problems.

My feeling is that in smaller sites like this, the existing staff probably have a greater "loyalty" to their boss and would "go" with them but in larger sites (where there might be unions etc and a greater likelihood of awareness of TUPE at the cleaner level) things might get a bit more complicated.

Hopefully others will be able to add to this interesting topic.

Mick

Kevin White

  • Posts: 97
Re: TUPE Query...
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2007, 10:32:13 am »
As I understand it Martin the responsibility for notification lies with the "transferor" and not you the "Transferee". Unless you are told how do you know that a contract is already staffed.
I am not saying it is legal, but.....
I would just go with the flow and worry about it if and when the outgoing Contractor notifies you.

Regards
Kevin
BE A WINNER
coming 2nd means you were 1st to LOSE

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: TUPE Query...
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2007, 05:19:07 pm »
Somewhere in your proposal, you should allow for TUPE, ignoring the rules or getting it wrong, can be very, very expensive, without wishing to upset or annoy anyone who thus far has responded to your query, I would ignore the advice given so far.

The correct procedure, is to write to the present contractor, asking for details under the present legislation, he in turn has a legal duty to furnish you with full details, failure by both or either party can lead to major problems down the line.

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

The Great One

  • Posts: 12722
Re: TUPE Query...
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2007, 08:04:41 pm »
Hi

Robert, I have put provision for TUPE on the quote, I have to cover myself.

I have also advised the new client he must ask if they need notice and make sure he is covered for TUPE and to check for any transferance of any contract from the former owner to him.

Thanks for all your help so far guys

Regards

Martin 8)

Fox

  • Posts: 824
Re: TUPE Query...
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2007, 07:44:13 am »
Hi Martin

Have you been offered this contract?  If so it is down to you to sort out the current staff and TUPE with the clients cooperation. 

If you have not been offered the contract and the new owner is dealing with the cleaning at present he must take the staff on under TUPE after the current contractors notice period is served.  He will need to know if the staff have been employed for more than one year as the rules change if this is the case.

I assume you know your no provision for TUPE in the quote will only cover additional costs and not release you from TUPE regs.

Fox

richyvezy

  • Posts: 137
Re: TUPE Query...
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2007, 01:07:34 pm »
Just came across this article whilst looking up on TUPE myself. It's from out-law.com

What do you need to do to comply with TUPE?
(1) Outgoing employer must inform and consult with staff

Employers involved in a business transfer must inform and consult with appropriate representatives of the affected employees about the transfer and any measures proposed. Certain specified information must be provided to the representatives long enough before the transfer to enable the outgoing employer to consult with them about it.

If there are any changes or proposals for changes following the transfer, these "measures" will have to be discussed with the representatives of the affected employees The incoming employer is required to provide the outgoing employer with information on proposed measures to allow the outgoing employer to comply with their duty to inform and consult. There is no set timetable for consultation, but the larger the transaction and the more staff affected, the longer the timetable will need to be.

If there is a failure to inform and consult, a complaint can be made to the Employment Tribunal. If successful, the Tribunal can award whatever compensation it considers just and equitable having regard to the seriousness of the employer's failure up to a maximum of 13 weeks' pay per affected employee. Information and consultation failures can now result in joint and several liability between the outgoing and incoming employers, unless the contract governing the transfer clearly caters for apportionment of liability here.

(2) Outgoing employer must provide employee liability information to incoming employer

Since April 2006, the outgoing employer has had a duty to provide the incoming employer with written details of the transferring employees (including identity, age, particulars of employment, disciplinary and grievance records, employee claims and collective agreements) together with all associated rights and liabilities that will transfer. This information must be passed not less than 14 days before the transfer, although in practice the incoming employer will aim to attain this information much earlier.

If there is a failure to comply with this duty by the outgoing employer, the incoming employer can apply to the Tribunal for compensation which will be assessed with regard to the losses suffered with a minimum award of £500 per employee.

A failure to comply with TUPE could therefore expose employers to claims large enough to undermine the entire transaction.

What other practical steps can you take to protect your business from the effects of TUPE?
Although there is nothing anyone can do to prevent TUPE applying (it is not possible to contract out of TUPE), there are steps which both the outgoing and incoming employers can take to divide up TUPE liabilities contractually between them. Whilst under TUPE employment liabilities connected to the transferring employees will always transfer to the incoming employer (so employee claims should always be made against the new employer), the parties can still agree contractually to divide up the liabilities between them in a different way. This ought to be done by means of contractual indemnities. If this is something you think would be useful for your business, you should always take specialist legal advice.

Richy

The Great One

  • Posts: 12722
Re: TUPE Query...
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2007, 04:15:44 pm »
Hi

Called the company today and he didn't have a contract in place?

went to quote for another one and they have given 4 weeks notice on the last company which has now passed, they have been doing it themselves and now want a quote from me.

i am guessing that with the first one TUPE won't apply and with the second it is up to them to contact the company and sort out TUPE as the bar staff are doing it right now???

ARGH!!!!!

Regards

Martin 8)

Fox

  • Posts: 824
Re: TUPE Query...
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2007, 05:33:37 pm »
I'm a bit confused!  ???

But I think you are saying that the first pub didn't have a contract in place but still had a company in to clean?  If that is the case and you take over from that company TUPE will apply and you have to sort it, if the previous contractors have left leaving him with no cleaners you can go straight in.

The second one, as I understand it has the current bar staff cleaning?  If they no longer want to do the cleaning and are happy just going back to bar work (which no doubt they will be!) you can go in and take your own staff without TUPE problems as in effect they do not have 'cleaners'.

Hope this makes sense
Fox

The Great One

  • Posts: 12722
Re: TUPE Query...
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2007, 05:55:49 pm »
Hi

Fox

The 1st pub was taken over from somene else (new landlord) he wasn't hasppy with their cleaning and not turning up, so he has binned them. I talked with the company and he has said that no contract was in place. The new landlord had inherited them.

2nd one, great, that saves a chore.