[Paul Simpson]

Been doing a big job for a customer who is just moving into a new place. Pre-tenancy & carpet cleaning as well as ripping some of the old carpet out.
She asked today about cleaning a 5 piece dark red leather suite that was left by the previous owner.
Just do the best you can shes says.
Had some leather cleaner & conditioner in the van so tested an area on the back of one of the armchairs and then cleaned one panel on the rear to show her the results she would get, which she was pleased with.
Trouble is the brand new white terry towel cloth looked like I'd just cleaned out the fireplace with it, completely black, almost looked like soot and this was just one small area, at that rate I would go through 30-40 cloths.

Can I pre-clean with hot soapy water? Or anything else?
Then use leather cleaner & conditioner after its dried.

Thanks in advance
Paul

[markpowell]

Hi,
Think you can wash with water and fabric and fibre rinse 50ml t a litre of water, but i may be wrong :
Mark

[Mike Halliday]

if you have some leather shampoo that you use neat then add some to a bucket of water and wash the suite down before cleaning, I'd wash it down with a soft brush then wipe it off with a damp towel ( just keep rinsing out the towel)

Mike

[Shaun_Ashmore]

Get a pump up spray bottle 1.5 litre and put your clean of choice in then pump up and apply spray onto a sponge, scrunch sponge so you get a foam and then rub over suite and towel off, you won't go through as many towels and it is quicker.

Shaun

PS check that the ph of your cleaner not too high or you could take the colour out and or the top coat off which is a glaze ontop of the colour.

[dan roberts]

so, with leather cleaning, there aint no machine use? just elbow grease and chemicals and terry towelling?

Dan 

[Shaun_Ashmore]

unless you want to spend a couple of grand?

Shaun

[dan roberts]

yeah why not eh?   

[Roger Koh]

Dear Paul and the Forum,

Replace terry towel with disposable washable paper rag (Kimberly Clarke®) – Work like Cloth, Cloth-like Strength & Sponge-like Absorbency - 55ply in a roll 27.9cm x 26.4cm.

Increase productivity by using spray bottles too (neat, practical no wastage)!

Need to get used to methods that is across the board – foam only works on non-absorbent leathers with fear of streaking too.

Are we only limiting ourselves to clean only “plastic” leathers?

Using pH 3 to 5 cleaners will never streaks on the most sensitive leather – pure aniline, equestrian or nubuck.

Leather structure pH value is between 3 and 5; even with a permanent urethane top coat “plastic” it still has a pH below 6.

Do you know the pH value of your cleaner and conditioner?

Are you using a leather pH safe cleaner?

Almost all soapy water is alkaline (may cause streaks or tackiness to the surface and may bleed the acid dyestuff or destabilize the tanning agent or fatliquor when seep through the “plastic” coating).

Soap will leave a scum similar to those found in basin and bathtubs or shower screen.

They will further attract soil like a magnet.

Hot water will have adverse effect on the leather (dyestuff, fatliquor, shrinkage, etc) safer to use room temperature (15 to 30 C).

Save and effective leather cleaners will clean all types of leather including aniline, equestrian, suede, nubuck, woolskin or hair-on.

They are pH balanced between 3 and 5.

Cleaners are available to match severity of soiling (all are water based).

Preconditioner includes: Super Heavy Duty Preconditioner, Super Preconditioner or Preconditioner.

Degreaser.

Cleaner.

Rinse.

Conditioners are available for it’s intend purpose to enhance the leather further, generally they are:

Leather Structure Softening Conditioner (to replenish original fatliquor diminish through age and cleaning).

Pull-Up Effect Conditioner: Wax or Oil Effect

Feel Conditioner: Buttery Feel, Draggy Feel, Waxy Feel or Silky Feel.

Leather Scent Conditioner: Buttery Feel, Draggy Feel, Waxy Feel or Silky Feel.

Currently there are 38 products available for leather, suede, nubuck, and woolskin and hair-on.

It’s a new horizon in the leather cleaning and restoration industry!

Roger Koh
IICRC#942 LCT MTC MSR
Leather Doctor® System
info@leatherdoctor.org

[LTT Leathercare]

Hello

Normally this level of dirt would only be on the surface if the leather had been in some sort of fire and these were soot residues!!

It sounds to me as though you have a 2 tone or antique style leather which when you are cleaning it you are removing the top coat which is what is showing so black on your cloth. 

You do not specify what cleaner you tried but if you do this over the whole suite you will end up with a very bright coloured suite. 

Firstly you need to identify the type of leather and whether this is indeed a 2 tone or antique.  Send us a photo if you want and we will identify it for you.  You should then use a foam cleaner and gently remove any surface dirt.  If this is then removing the top coat this is easy to replace with pigment in a can but a bit daunting if you have never done one before.

This is NOT a cleaning probelm and any liquid (even water) will remove the finish which has been damaged.  You need to replace the pigment and reseal the finish.

Give me a ring on 01423 881027 if you want further advice.

[Paul Simpson]

Thanks for the replies guys. Finished up there today. It did look as if it was antique style leather as suggested.

It looked as if someone had tried to clean it before because some of the arms were bright red in places with no black steak running through it, i.e. it had been rubbbed away.

Tried a small area under the arm and found it was having to same affect, so told the customer I would vacuum and wipe down with just water.
Anyway she was happy and has some more work for me next week.
Thanks again for the replies.

[*paul_moss]

Paul sounds like a Chesterfield, the black is an antique finish that is applied over the red pigment. If you get a cloth and wet the end of it with a small amount of water then rub the suite in any area the cloth will be black,it is not muck but colour.
To clean these suites is awkward because you will remove most of the antique finish when you clean it.The suite will look quite bright and red.Once cleaned all you have to do is reapply the antique finish.

Hope this clarifies things better 

[Dan Williams]

Come on Paul the leather man!!!

[John Kelly]

I know a guy who spent 4 hours getting all the black off one these and he was really pleased with the lovely pink suite he ended up with. His boss wasn't so pleased when he had to buy a new one. I, there was no fancy LTT's or Furniture Clinics in those days.

[LTT Leathercare]

Its amazing how many times this happens and technicians just carry on cleaning until they have removed all the antiquing, but replacing the antiquing is very easy.

This is the sort of thing that puts people off cleaning leather for life, but it shouldn't as it is one of the easiest things to rerctify.

Cleaning them is no different to cleaning any other pigmented suite and it depends on the level of wear and strength of the finish as to how much is removed.  Sometimes none will come off at all.  Usually if there is a problem it would be obvious before you start as there would already be some wear areas.

[*paul_moss]

A good point this does scare people in the early days of cleaning.

Its strange with Chesterfild suites as I have found that 90% of the ones I have come across have no finish applied over the antique, this is  true with Chesterfields from 30 years old right through to new cheap repro's.

Judy any idea why this is ?

[LTT Leathercare]

Paul

To answer this you have to understand how antique leather is finished.  The fact that colour comes off is nothing to do with product use but the way the antiquing has been applied in the first place and how that wears over time.

Antique finishes (colour and finish) are applied in 4 different ways and all these will wear in a different way.

1.    3 stage finishing:    Base colour, top colour (usually black or very dark version of base colour) plus a clear coat finish
2.    2 stage finishing:    Base colour plus a tinted finish (clear coat finish with a colour in it)
3.    Rub off style:    Base coat plus dark top coat which is then partly removed to create the antique look.
4.    Rub on style:   Base coat plus dark top coat which is hand wiped on to create the antique look.

In cases 3 and 4 a clear coat finish may or may not have been applied.

The wear properties of each will be as follows:

1.   This will be the hardest wearing of the 4.  However over time a certain amount of the finish will wear through use and cleaning and once this has broken down the top layer of pigment will wear showing bright patches underneath.

2.  Tinted finishes do not wear as well as clear coat finishes due to the weakening of the finish by adding pigment to it. The strength of the finish will make it more or less hard wearing and will wear the same as the above, over time revealing brighter patches.

3 and 4  Hand wiped top coats or rub offs will be the ones that produce the bigger problems.  If they have been finished they will wear similar to 1. as they basically have a 3 part finishing process.  If a finish has not been added then the top coat colour is what will be wiping off in great quantity leaving bright colour underneath and a very dirty cloth (as in the original problem).

Using the 5 stage testing process should reveal to you what type of finish has been applied and how the cleaning should be approached.
Top coat colours and tinted finishes are available for refinishing.  Hand wiped antiques can sometimes be tricky to replicate as the patterns produced are random.

[*paul_moss]

 Judy I understand all your above points ( and very well explained)

I prob havent explained my question clearly enough.

 What I wondered was why in some cases a top coat is applied and in others it is not.

Whether the antique coat is sprayed or rubbed on to give the desired finished look, why do manufactures only put a finish on some of them surely if all were finished then the antique coat would last longer.

I find I can replicate all type of antique finished looks with a good spray gun, but always aplpy a finish for max life.

[Ben Staerck]

Paul,

The majority of the leather is done like this.

1. Base coated and top coated in the tannery. In this case you can't normally tell that there is a base coat, because the top coat totally hides it.

2. Then this is sold the the furniture manufacturers. They then upholster the furniture and use a rub off soltuion to wipe away the colour in specific areas. On a  chesterfield for example, in the diamond shapes created by the buttons.

To answer your questions. It is then up to the manufacturer to apply a top coat. So its down to where it came from if it has a top coat or not.

The leather is also designed to distress and become antiqued as it ages, putting on a top coat will prevent/reduce this and so some manufacturers may be opting out for that reason.

[LTT Leathercare]

The furniture market like any other cuts costs where they can.  Not putting a finish on saves time and product costs therefore making more profit.  It is also a fashion industry and the manufacturers are not really bothered about wearability but what will sell.  It is not their problem once the items have been sold and antique style finishes are meant to wear off so they do not have to justify the lack of finish.

It may also be due to lack of knowledge, a lot of the pigment leathers that are coming in from China are not finished correctly and talking to people who have been to China to look at the furniture and tanning industry out there, they have said there is a distinct lack of knowledge in what they are doing.  This hopefully will improve but in the meantime keeps leather technicians over here very busy, trying to replace parts that have originated in China is almost impossible so technicans are very busy with warranty companies and furniture stores putting right these problems.

China seem to have little or no knowledge of problem solving on leather and we are speaking to people about supplying specialist products to them for things like mold and 'spewing' problems which are now very very common, together with training.

The hides that Ben refers to are only the 'rub off' style of hides and yes these would need to be refinished by the manufacturer of the furniture who again may or may not understand the need for re-finishing or does not put one on because they want it to wear off. 

The different variety of antique leather finishes have always been around - rub off hides are not as common as they used to be as it is another process to be done and generally manufacturers do not like doing it.  It is unlikely that China produce rub off hides so they are making antique looking leathers in different ways.

[Roger Koh]

Dear Paul Moss and the Forum,

Re: A high-end antique leather refinishing fit for the Queen.

An option for consideration when comes to refinishing antique leathers (loss of secondary darker color).

If you have been discouraged in the past, this procedure will not fail to satisfy.

Preparation cleaning is prerequisite.

AntiqueColor67™ comes in Burgundy11, Chestnut12, Tan10 and Black08; these antique colors can further be intermixed to match existing colors.
   
A special wipe is also available buff35™, to just remove the grain and leaves the grooves to create an artistic antique effect.
   
A choice of top coat either a SemiTop56™ (semi-absorbent) or a PigmentTop62™ (non-absorbent) is available and it comes in matte, satin or gloss.
   
To increase the physical performance properties, crossLinker25™ is available to be added to the top coat at a 1-3% level.

To make the finish work more appealing to the senses a leather scent conditioner is available.

leatherScent’B™ is a non film-forming sensuous conditioner developed to enhance a soft natural buttery feel.

Impart an unforgettable fine classic leather scent.

Provide a non-stick surface essentially to shield the detrimental effects of sticky soiling.

Increase resistance to wet and dry rubs.

Promote abrasion and scuff resistance.

Reduce squeak when leather rubs against leather or clothing during movement contact.

These procedures are for high-end antique leather refinishing fit for the Queen.

Roger Koh
IICRC#942 LCT MTC MSR
Leather Doctor® System
info@leatherdoctor.org