[brightnclean]

I cant be bothered to do the quotes thing on this one but let's look a bit more closely at some of the info you have posted Trevor.

2) I offered you the deposit and you said you didn't want it until nearer the time FACT!

Well good on them. A lot would have taken the money and ran. Which perhaps has a bearing on the answer to your next statement.

3) You contacted me 1 week before the campaign start date explaining you had struggled on other commercial work for other companies and now didn't feel confident you could deliver the campaign to me in the time you originally agreed FACT

At least they were being honest with you. Come on we all know that commercial work at good prices is very hard to come by.

4) You called me back that day and said personally (No, I will do the contract and I will get the work for you as promised, I will call you later to discuss it with you in more detail) FACT

Perhaps they felt pushed to honour their original proposal in the heat of the moment a kneejerk reaction happened because they realised that they could gain some very negative feedback from you unless they kept you happy.

5) Never received any further communcation from you regarding my campaign until I posted against your name on this forum which you constantly use promoting your canvassing services!

You feel aggrieved and probably angry and now is the time to get them. Why didnt you post about this before? You got p*ssed off mate. End off. Just put it down to experience and move on

6) I left a posting on here asking you to ring my MOBILE which you have still not done.

In the light of the tone of the first posting you made in this thread regarding this matter I would want time to think about my reaction to it.


7) Yes you left a message on our office number despite my request for you to call my mobile?

Well at least they did try to contact you. Does it really matter whether it's on you office or mobile number?

What have we done since I spoke to you _ well apart from help you by introducing you to colleagues regarding your franchising idea as well as help you with supplier information and details as well as listening to your sidekick try and tell me how to run my business and also insult my intelligence and mock the fact that we don't earn £100 per hour per operative, oh and lets not forget to mention the incident regarding my son who I was looking for work for, your same sidekick tried to sell me a round despite he COULDN'T drive and then tried to palm me off with other B*****it!

That is nothing but an angry reaction. Now you are getting personal.

I will let the members on CIU make thier own minds up who and what they wish to believe?

I would make my own mind up and not let this type of thing influence me one bit.You may not realise that you have come across as aggresive.  I would realise that there are always 2 sides to every story and at least call them to invite them to compete for my business

Repeated aggression ? really, all I have done is quote FACTS Nathan, as for telephone conversations, please, I have never raised my voice to you once during all 3 times we have spoken?

The whole nature of this thing has been aggresive since the outset here on the forum. It hasnt worked out the way you expected and you are angry about it. You may not think that you have been aggresive but mere tone of voice can convey that you are. You dont have to raise your voice to sound angry and aggresive.

All the above said we all get dissapointments and feel let down and angry in business at some time. Running a good window cleaning business can be stressful and from what I can see you are doing a very good job sustaining and growing your business Trevor. I hope that you continue with your success and the effort you put into the APWC for all our benefit.

Ohh for the record I have nothing at all to do with WCR. I have never had any contact with them in any way.

[Paul Coleman]

they could gain some very negative feedback from you unless they kept you happy.[/b]

5) Never received any further communcation from you regarding my campaign until I posted against your name on this forum which you constantly use promoting your canvassing services!

You feel aggrieved and probably angry and now is the time to get them. Why didnt you post about this before? You got p*ssed off mate. End off. Just put it down to experience and move on

6) I left a posting on here asking you to ring my MOBILE which you have still not done.

In the light of the tone of the first posting you made in this thread regarding this matter I would want time to think about my reaction to it.


7) Yes you left a message on our office number despite my request for you to call my mobile?

Well at least they did try to contact you. Does it really matter whether it's on you office or mobile number?

What have we done since I spoke to you _ well apart from help you by introducing you to colleagues regarding your franchising idea as well as help you with supplier information and details as well as listening to your sidekick try and tell me how to run my business and also insult my intelligence and mock the fact that we don't earn £100 per hour per operative, oh and lets not forget to mention the incident regarding my son who I was looking for work for, your same sidekick tried to sell me a round despite he COULDN'T drive and then tried to palm me off with other B*****it!

That is nothing but an angry reaction. Now you are getting personal.

I will let the members on CIU make thier own minds up who and what they wish to believe?

I would make my own mind up and not let this type of thing influence me one bit.You may not realise that you have come across as aggresive.  I would realise that there are always 2 sides to every story and at least call them to invite them to compete for my business

Repeated aggression ? really, all I have done is quote FACTS Nathan, as for telephone conversations, please, I have never raised my voice to you once during all 3 times we have spoken?

The whole nature of this thing has been aggresive since the outset here on the forum. It hasnt worked out the way you expected and you are angry about it. You may not think that you have been aggresive but mere tone of voice can convey that you are. You dont have to raise your voice to sound angry and aggresive.

All the above said we all get dissapointments and feel let down and angry in business at some time. Running a good window cleaning business can be stressful and from what I can see you are doing a very good job sustaining and growing your business Trevor. I hope that you continue with your success and the effort you put into the APWC for all our benefit.

Ohh for the record I have nothing at all to do with WCR. I have never had any contact with them in any way.

OK so neither of us were there but to me it comes across that WCR's intentions were more than he could deliver.  I suppose we can all do that sometimes.  Although WCR acknowleged this, he did later phone back to say that he could deliver after all.  That seems to bew where the mistake was made.  Perhaps he should he stuck with the original line of having doubts about whether it could be achieved.  After retracting the original doubts and failing to deliver, I think it is reasonable to feel p'd off.  Yes I do agree that there are ways of showing anger other than raising of the voice and I also agree that the other person can pick up those vibes even if we are unaware that we are giving them off.  I feel a degree of irritation would be reasonable in such a situation.  Also, by phoning the office number rather than Trevor's mobile, is it possible that WCR was aware that he hadn't delivered and was struggling to communicate directly with Trevor?
I think the situation could have been avoided if WCR had dropped the sales stuff and had been more transparent about his ability to deliver what Trevor wanted - and done that directly on a 1-2-1 basis.  I'm not trying to apportion blame.  If either of these guys have made mistakes, they pale into insignifance when compared to some that I have made in my own life.

On a more general note now.  Sales tactics are all very well and many of the core principles are sound and travel well between different industries.  However, although I can't put my finger on it, I suspect that the window cleaning industry is a different animal in some respects.

[brightnclean]

If either of these guys have made mistakes, they pale into insignifance when compared to some that I have made in my own life.

Very wise words Shiner. This type of thing is just part of business. Nothing has been stolen.. no-one has been cheated out of anything. Certainly not deliberately so the wisest thing to do is just put it down to experience and move on.

I am sure that misunderstandings/mistakes/good intentions that couldnt be fulfilled in the end/bad communication and above all HUMAN NATURE played a part in this situation.

I am not blaming Trevor for feeling aggrieved. Nor do I blame WCR for anything.

My real problem with all this is that on public forums to air dirty washing doesn't do anyone any good in the end. Nothing is really achieved other than perhaps a good vent.

One thing I will say is I do agree with what WCR said at the outset. That Trevor would be believed. Had I been in their shoes I would not have even responded because they were on a hiding to nothing from the start with this one.

[nat]

My real problem with all this is that on public forums to air dirty washing doesn't do anyone any good in the end. Nothing is really achieved other than perhaps a good vent.

Well something is achieved and that is giving people an insight into the companys that would/could/should/not improve our business. yes we can all put it down to experience but then where does that get us?

We are in business, some want to acheive more, some are happy to plod along, if you agree something and it is not delivered then i would want to know why? it pee's me off the amount of time i've listened to sales waffle for it all to never materialise! if you agree it then deliver it! if you have any doubts of your capabilities then let people know from the start don't lead people up the garden path and then moan when it blows up in your face

a quote from WCR

"our business is to grow your business"

just only when we can actually deliver it!

[windowwashers]

My real problem with all this is that on public forums to air dirty washing doesn't do anyone any good in the end. Nothing is really achieved other than perhaps a good vent.

Well something is achieved and that is giving people an insight into the companys that would/could/should/not improve our business. yes we can all put it down to experience but then where does that get us?

We are in business, some want to acheive more, some are happy to plod along, if you agree something and it is not delivered then i would want to know why? it pee's me off the amount of time i've listened to sales waffle for it all to never materialise! if you agree it then deliver it! if you have any doubts of your capabilities then let people know from the start don't lead people up the garden path and then moan when it blows up in your face

a quote from WCR

"our business is to grow your business"

just only when we can actually deliver it!

why have to be doing something right or they would not be in business sour grapes it what this is sounding like  the post nat not aimed at you

[nat]

no sour grapes, why would i have sour grapes i've never dealt with them, i'm simply commenting on what i've been reading!

[Paul Coleman]

One thing I will say is I do agree with what WCR said at the outset. That Trevor would be believed. Had I been in their shoes I would not have even responded because they were on a hiding to nothing from the start with this one.

Trevor has shown himself to consistently be a very helpful poster and has been around here for a while.  The only tangible reward for much of what he has given to the forum has been the good feeling that comes from helping another.

WCR is much newer around here and has possibly helped some people move their businesses up a level.  In the process he has presumably made some money out of it and that would appear to be the main motivation in doing so (nothing wrong with that).

So I have to agree with you that, even without being a moderator, Trevor's standing on here has been higher than WCR's.  Therefore, it is natural that people would be more inclined to believe what Trevor has said.
Trevor seems to have a more upfroint posting style whereas WCR appears to be more the salesman.  Unfortunately, the salesmen that hit the headlines are usually the less ethical ones and this gives a negative tainted picture of the sales industry generally.  Most window cleaners I've met are more "cut the carp (sic) and say it as it is" types so would probably go for Trevor's style rather than WCR's.

You say "hiding to nothing".  More like a walkover I think.

It can be difficult forming reliable impressions in a text only medium and perhaps WCR has a lot to offer.  It may just be that he needs to alter his style to the "cut the carp" that most W/cers seem to thrive on.  Let's face it, many of us are used to carp from some of our (ex?)custies and don't tolerate it too well.

[nat]

It can be difficult forming reliable impressions in a text only medium and perhaps WCR has a lot to offer.  It may just be that he needs to alter his style to the "cut the carp" that most W/cers seem to thrive on.  Let's face it, many of us are used to carp from some of our (ex?)custies and don't tolerate it too well.

I don't think it just comes down to window cleaners but i understand where your coming from, i just think in general, i much prefer being upfront and truthful with people, and not hiding behind a salesman front, its all bull carp, my father has been a successful salesman for years and years and i think it is probably his ability to talk to people on their individual level and to deliver what he is capable of, i've dealt with all sorts of idiots from listening to divy estate agents to settee salesman telling me this is a once in a lifetime opportunity!

be upfront, speak your mind, don't pretent your something your not

[windowwashers]

It can be difficult forming reliable impressions in a text only medium and perhaps WCR has a lot to offer.  It may just be that he needs to alter his style to the "cut the carp" that most W/cers seem to thrive on.  Let's face it, many of us are used to carp from some of our (ex?)custies and don't tolerate it too well.

I don't think it just comes down to window cleaners but i understand where your coming from, i just think in general, i much prefer being upfront and truthful with people, and not hiding behind a salesman front, its all bull carp,

be upfront, speak your mind, don't pretent your something your not

That is very very true.

[brightnclean]

This has turned into a well thought out and intelligent debate with input from obviously reasonable people.

My thoughts re commercial work is that gaining it in quantity and quality does require sales ability.

I will pose a question here. How many of us have in the past taken on work that in all honesty we were not totally prepared for and had for the want of better wording  to do a bit of BSing when we realised that we were in a little too deep?

I confess that I have as part of my learning curve in running my own business. Mostly it has involved deadlines that I found that I couldnt meet in the end so the good old stock of standard excuses and last minute panics have come into play.

[Paul Coleman]

This has turned into a well thought out and intelligent debate with input from obviously reasonable people.

My thoughts re commercial work is that gaining it in quantity and quality does require sales ability.

I will pose a question here. How many of us have in the past taken on work that in all honesty we were not totally prepared for and had for the want of better wording  to do a bit of BSing when we realised that we were in a little too deep?

I confess that I have as part of my learning curve in running my own business. Mostly it has involved deadlines that I found that I couldnt meet in the end so the good old stock of standard excuses and last minute panics have come into play.

I think I've only done that in my early days as a W/C when I wanted to give the impression that I had more experience than I really had.  I didn't tell any direct lies but I was certainly trying to paint a picture which was different to reality.
I did a bit of that when I first started WFP as well.  This time I had to quote things that people had written on this forum and give the impression that it was my personal experience.  Of course I could only do that with new customers as the converted ones were well aware I had been usig ladders and squeegees for many years.

[nat]

I don't lie to get me contracts, i have exaggerated in the earlier days, so i agree with you Shiner. I'm now confident of what I am, what i can achieve so no need to lie about my operations. you will probably find at some point you will come unstuck! ain't worth the hassle!!

[Trevor Knight]

Guy's Firstly can I thank you for all your comments, it made good reading and certainly points raised are worth considering.

Despite what people may or may not think I am not slating WCR, I am sure they have managed to complete work for others and I am sure it's been worthwhile.

Why did I post on here, well, so everyone is in the picture, this is why!

I read time after time on here that companies offering this service have let the end user down (i.e. YOU!), maybe by not delivering work as promised, maybe by underpricing, selling a 1 off clean instead of a monthly call, failing to replace or refund cancellations, we all know the reasons.

Now I met with Nathan, he was very pleasant and polite and without doubt sold his company and all the effort they were going through to improve services such as this and about taking his company forward.

I stressed, based on previous history, this industry would welcome with open arms a company who did exactly what they say without any hidden agenda's or motives and without all the dissapointment that we have suffered in the past. Both Nathan and I agreed what would be a fantastic opportunity to build a future for his company if they delivered everything as promised.

I pointed out to Nathan that using this Forum would undoubtedly gain him work and that good news travels fast and I was positive he would have tremendous success. I said to him that when he had completed my campaign I would also be the first one to sing his praises and highlight what a great job he had done and that I would recommend him on this forum to others.

I did also stress that BAD news travels faster and that too many times other forum members had been let down etc.... and that he was putting his neck on the line so to speak. In fact Nathan agreed this was a great opportunity as he knew a good company would gain tremendous credibility for delivering results as promised.

So, people on here have questioned that in my position as a mod perhaps I should have not taken this angle and simply state the facts of what has happened. Well I disagree, I believe even more so I should have the members interest at heart and just make people aware what they may or may not be letting themselves in for based on my own experience.

I am lucky in the respect that I can take 2/3 hours out of my day to attend a meeting without losing money, but others on here perhaps can't? I am dissapointed that despite all that was discussed we still found ourselves wanting for the results?

My posting is anything but sour grapes, hey, if anything my posting is just stating facts and informing others what may lie ahead. I would like to believe Nathan and WCR Ltd are a very good company, I wanted to use their services? I wanted to see our forum have a canvassing company that could genuinely help us all out and give us what we needed?

Maybe as posted they felt obliged to carry out my campaign, but read my post, they had ample months to talk to me and let me know if things were changing?

I have not deleted anyone's account either! I wouldn't do that! I would be more than willing to speak with Nathan to discuss a way forward and resolve this matter. At the end of the day all I want is people to deliver what they say they can and thats all?

[nat]

At the end of the day all I want is people to deliver what they say they can and thats all?

that really is the bottom line!.

[supernova77]

I didn't tell any direct lies but I was certainly trying to paint a picture which was different to reality.

LOL... That's one of the best contradictions I have ever heard

Andy

[Paul Coleman]

I didn't tell any direct lies but I was certainly trying to paint a picture which was different to reality.

LOL... That's one of the best contradictions I have ever heard

Andy

LOL.   
I do have a way with words don't I?
I did it by using leading statements and by omitting things.  Maybe it's as naughty as direct lying really but by the time they would have realised my inexperience, I would have got the hang of window cleaning anyway   
What was I supposed to say?  "Well I've never done this before but can I practice on your windows please?"   

[williamx]

I came to an agreement with Nat on the 30 July, he said the next time we talk, it will him calling with the commercial customers, he said he could get me.

Well 6 weeks later still no telephone call , must be no more customers out there anymore.

[windowwashers]

I didn't tell any direct lies but I was certainly trying to paint a picture which was different to reality.

LOL... That's one of the best contradictions I have ever heard

Andy

LOL.   
I do have a way with words don't I?
I did it by using leading statements and by omitting things.  Maybe it's as naughty as direct lying really but by the time they would have realised my inexperience, I would have got the hang of window cleaning anyway   
What was I supposed to say?  "Well I've never done this before but can I practice on your windows please?"   

shiner you make me laugh m8, good on ya.

Trevor responded better than I thought he would and fair play to him aswell, my opinion has changed, it is funny what people write on here does stick sometimes, wcr are a good bunch of lads, maybe they had problems maybe they didnt want to deal with trevor this is unknown to me and anyone else apart from them 2..

While I am here trevor did you get the email I sent with the images for you website? i efited them for you as the ones that i saw was not to good, just thought i would suck up to the moderator you see lol 

[Trevor Knight]

Nathan took the time to contact me today and apologised for not being in contact, which I have to say says a lot about him and his company, I have known others to simply hide and hope it all goes away so thank you to Nathan for having the professionalism to make contact.

I hope everyone can learn something from this posting and that is communication between two parties is vital to maintain a good working relationship.

I wish Nathan well and hope he continues providing his services and that the same mistake isn't made again with future customers regarding contact.

Trevor

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

I have been reading this thread with great interest, I am not going to make any comments good or bad as this is between Trevor and Nathan, but the reason I’ve been looking is that I have ask Nathan to canvass £150 worth of domestic in an area that I have a couple of jobs in.

The main reason I am taking on more work is after going wfp (over 2 years now) I find I have more time on my hands to expand and I’ve also taken on my 18yr old son fulltime, over the course of the last 6 months we have dropped all those CR**P customers (you know the ones I mean the (NOT TODAY THANKS GANG).
It has now come to the point where we have a nice established round earning a good wage but as we all know there’s room for improvement and find that with the speed we can work at we could easily fit in 1 extra days work each week. Having said this, although I can canvass and on the odd occasion do so I feel once I’ve finished my days work I want to go home and put my feet up not go door knocking.

As we are fortunate enough to be in a financial situation to be able to employ a canvasser this is the road we have decided to go up. As earlier mentioned we are trying out Nathans company for a first run of £150, if this proves to be successful then we will no doubt be looking for more work from him. If on the other hand it does not pan out as planed we will have to spend a few hours doing it ourselves.

My overall plan is to create such a big round that in a couple of years time we will split in 2 with myself and my son doing half each, each having his own van and round.

I personally hope that Nathan can produce what I have asked for (due to start last week in Sept) and in due course will keep you all informed as to how it went (good or bad)

I’m sorry that things never worked out between Trevor and Nathan but I also feel that Trevor has the right to voice his opinion on this forum and Nathan also has the right to defend himself. Surely this is what the forum is about, looking out for each others interest,  giving advice and telling each other when you are not happy about things, after all if a company advertises on the forum then they should expect feedback from it’s members (good or bad) a bit like e-bay really.

Just my thoughts.
Jay