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Paul Coleman

Re: Breaking SLWCN News
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2007, 03:41:15 am »
However one that we cannot fix are those who would fail a licence, this would be between yourselves and the licensing committee. A word of warning they are trying now to bring in spent convictions which I feel is wrong as we were all mad terriors when we were young. People can change and should be given the chance in life.


Exactly.
If you give some of these guys a tiny bit of power it goes to their heads.  Spent convictions should not be used against anyone.  Even since starting window cleaning in 1991 I have been in situations which may have led to a conviction.  Like the idiot who tried to pick a fight with me because he didn't like me taking a corner too slowly (I had a full load of water on board).  Defending myself could have led to a conviction.  Like the copper who tried to drag me outside when I was eating in a restaurant just because I was wearing an item of clothing that resembled something worn by a nearby troublemaker a few minutes previously.
You need to think very carefully about this.  One moment of rough justice that isn't your fault could lead to your entire income being flushed down the pan.  And no!! - the courts are not a safeguard.  Plenty of miscarriages occur especially in magistrates courts where they automatically believe everything a copper says whether or not he/she is embellishing the truth.
Would they hold it against me because I got done for obstructing the police in 1977?  Would they hold it against me because I got caught smoking dope in 1974?
Would they hold it against me because I was a social misfit until the mid 80s who didn't know which way to turn to get out of the mess I made for myself?
These power hungry t*ats would set the restrictions for becoming a window cleaner as high as they would for becoming a copper if they had half a chance.  And you put one tiny little foot slightly out of line and they will remove your entire income.
At first glance a few might say that you should toe the line legally.  But there are areas of life where this becomes a grey area.  For instance if you wish to legally demonstrate against something a government wants to do.  It's so easy for a legal demonstration to turn illegal with police arresting people pretty randomly.  So your legal demonstration gets you nicked and your entire income is taken away.  To avoid this risk, you would have not demonstrate against injustice.  OK maybe that's not a very good example and I'm not into demonstrations anyway (my last time doing that was the picket line at Wapping when I worked in the print).
I feel that the state and local councils have grabbed too much power over individuals already.
On the face of it, licensing the trade for the benefit of us legit window cleaners seems a good thing.  However, we have seen before how controls can be increased almost by stealth.  Once the legislation is in place, extensions to it can be approved "on the nod" and indeed, often without publicity.  If licensing becomes widespread, the councils could well try to set rates of pay like they do with taxi drivers.  It would be more difficult to enforce this with window cleaners because there are far more variables than with taxi drivers.  It would only need a few scammers to rip off some old people by charging extortionate amounts for window cleaning and they would be on every window cleaners case.

On top of all this there is the issue of people who cross boundaries to do their work.  I live next to the border of three counties and work in all three.  Then there is the cost of the licence.  If the authorities agreed to enforce it, what's the betting that they would ringfence the costs of doing so i.e. the cost of enforcement comes from the licence fees rather than general taxation.  The financing of enforcement generally is traditionally carried out by the fining system and from the public purse.  However, more and more we see the payers financing a scheme and the fines going to central government rather than being ploughed back into the scheme.  A typical example of this is the resident only parking scam where I live.  Our fees pay for the wardens' wages and the general admin.  The fines go to central government.  I believe that the fine money should be returned to the scheme to keep the costs down.
Ultimately the customer would pay anyway as increased costs result in higher prices or a reduced standard of living for the window cleaner.  I wonder how we would fare if the government imposed price capping generally to keep inflation down.  That's not so far fetched either because that was done in the 1970s.

Rant over.
Now chopping up my soapbox for firewood.

DASERVICES

Re: Breaking SLWCN News
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2007, 05:23:59 pm »
Guys,

Would like your honest opinion on the below press release that was done jointly with the Council and SLWCN. We will be working with other Councils on other press releases to help getting the message to the general public. Please note "the passing of information of unlicensed window cleaners to the Council" is a directive from the Council which they requested.

This and other press releases will be a case study on what reaction is received so we can have a unformed system of getting the message through. If you disagree with any wording please let me know, I can change SLWCN wording but not what the Council might want to put in but we can still advise.

Please let's work together with the same aim of improving our Industry.

Lastley this is a great opportunity to advertise your services if you are in need of work.

Much appreciated.

Doug




Stevie G

  • Posts: 440
Re: Breaking SLWCN News
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2007, 06:52:24 pm »
 i cant comment on the above becouse i dont know enougth about it.
 but wether you think its a good idea or not your entitled say so.
 
 some one mentioned above about builders or plumbers. i think
 youll find that the the ones that have spent years building up
 there reputation or portfolio or what ever you wanna call
 it are more than likely members of some association or other.
 
 for those of us who have spent ££££££££££ on nice gear.
 getting in debt on a nice shiny van. pounded the streets
 with leaflets or door knocking.

 and some toe rag, or eastern european pulls up trying to undercut
 you.............you might wanna then think it's not such a bad idea!

Paul Coleman

Re: Breaking SLWCN News
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2007, 11:08:41 pm »
i cant comment on the above becouse i dont know enougth about it.
 but wether you think its a good idea or not your entitled say so.
 
 some one mentioned above about builders or plumbers. i think
 youll find that the the ones that have spent years building up
 there reputation or portfolio or what ever you wanna call
 it are more than likely members of some association or other.
 
 for those of us who have spent ££££££££££ on nice gear.
 getting in debt on a nice shiny van. pounded the streets
 with leaflets or door knocking.

 and some toe rag, or eastern european pulls up trying to undercut
 you.............you might wanna then think it's not such a bad idea!


I think a viable case can be made by both pro and anti licensing people.
You mention Trade Associations in your post.  That's not really the same thing as licensing though.  My main objections are not about licensing or TAs per se.  They are more about a system being fairly administered rather than used as yet another stealth tax.  They are also about finding a fair balance between keeping the nasty elements out of our profession and suffering excessive state interference.  Also, as I stated in my post, anyone can suffer a miscarriage of justice or even make a mistake.  Most people don't lose their entire income over it though.
Although I did rather slip into rant mode in my earlier post, I do believe that the issues I raised were relevant.  I am concerned that in a rush to "keep out the cowboys" (a better word doesn't spring to mind), the window cleaning profession could be shooting some of its members in the foot.
I am not from Scotland but licensing and additional regulation could one day take place in the rest of the UK too.  I feel that it is important that safeguards be in place so that window cleaners are not excessively punished for relatively small transgressions.  My own life has been clean for many years but no-one is perfect.  Just suppose that some idiot approached you in the street and you needed to physically defend yourself.  If there are no witnesses present, you could end up in court on an assault charge and lose your license to clean windows over it as you would be deemed an "undesirable".  Maybe I saw a bit more of the unseemly side of life during my misspent youth but it has made me aware of the sort of things that can happen.

DASERVICES

Re: Breaking SLWCN News
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2007, 11:30:11 pm »
Shiner totally understand where you are coming from.

In Scotland if you are refused a licence you can then go before the licencing panel and argue your case. A lot have done that and managed to get a licence.

What needs to be done is a set criteria as to who would never be issued a licence to, for example a perisitant burgular. That person would be considered a risk.

Where a person is not deemed a risk should be granted a licence, those who are deemed a risk I cannot comment on as even the Police could not answer that.

It's something I could not answer or say who would be unfit to hold a licence, it lays with the committee who you have to go in front of.

Doug

Paul Coleman

Re: Breaking SLWCN News
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2007, 04:12:34 pm »
Shiner totally understand where you are coming from.

In Scotland if you are refused a licence you can then go before the licencing panel and argue your case. A lot have done that and managed to get a licence.

What needs to be done is a set criteria as to who would never be issued a licence to, for example a perisitant burgular. That person would be considered a risk.

Where a person is not deemed a risk should be granted a licence, those who are deemed a risk I cannot comment on as even the Police could not answer that.

It's something I could not answer or say who would be unfit to hold a licence, it lays with the committee who you have to go in front of.

Doug

Those last couple of sentences you wrote seem to be part of the problem I've brought up.  My feeling is that decisions could be made behind closed doors by people who are unaccountable.  Even the window cleaner who is refused a licence might not get to the bottom of the exact reasons why.  These bodies have a tendency to only give generic explanations.  You cannot really appeal against a generic explanation.  Mistakes can and do happen as well.  I once knew a man who was in court for the relatively minor offence (even in the 70s) of possessing cannabis.  He pleaded guilty - bang to rights and all that.  When it came to sentencing they started reading out his previous convictions and if he hadn't spoken up, he would have gone down.  A long list of burglaries, shopflifting and assault incidents were read out to the court.  He knew nothing about any of them.  Someone made a major blunder and nearly lumped him with the previous of someone with a similar name and the same date of birth.

It's very important that there is total transparency in the process rather than some semi faceless body refusing someone on generalisations.
If you are getting the impression that I do not trust the powers that be then you are right.  They can be both incompetent and vindictive if someone's face doesn't fit.  This can be hard to believe for someone who has never had any dealings with authority but I've both witnessed and know of some shameful things that have been done in the past.