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vix

office contract
« on: June 08, 2007, 07:42:54 pm »
hi i was wondering if anybody can help, im currently going to go self employed soon doing cleaning currently doing it now for 3yrs,(domestic) i also clean and office twice a wk  how can i organise a contract as i could undercut my bosses as they only pay me £6.00 p/h they make £59 profitevery wk, now i have spoken to the bosses as they are all for it as i have been doing this office for over 2yrs now, the company im with have on a couple occassions called me and said there no work have the day of but i find out the other girls are in customers are not happy and said if i leave  so will they..also im having to go out on my own as they sacked the girl i was with but not going to replace her do you reckon i should just get up & go,as for cleaning products they are trying to really cut back to 1 bottle of everything per wk, its a joke thanks for reading

Cleaning Resource

  • Posts: 495
Re: office contract
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2007, 09:12:56 pm »
I stated my business in pretty much the same way, my advise to you is as follows.

check your contract of employment for clauses preventing you from working for their clients, (there are plenty of ways round that one so don`t worry to much)

get your potential client to check their contract with your current employers.

hand in your notice to your current boss,

get your new client to end their agreement with them a couple of weeks after you have left using the reason that the cleaning has gone down hill since you left.

get your self some insurance, register your self as self employed, buy some equipment and of you go....... ;D ;D

absolutecleaning

  • Posts: 465
Re: office contract
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2007, 07:34:32 am »
Very nice

You are exactly the sort of staff I do not want to employ

You may well find that the clauses in your contract are not that easy to get round if your current employer can be bothered to pursue it.

I hope you do well and when you get round to employing staff that they are as good to you as you are to the people who have taken you on and paid holiday, sickness etc...

 >:(

(And you you wonder why there are so many posts on this forum with people worrying about employing other people to work for them)

Fox

  • Posts: 824
Re: office contract
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2007, 11:04:39 am »
I agree with absolute cleaning.

If you want to go self employed then do it properly instead of being underhanded, if you are as good a cleaner as you say then you should have no problem finding jobs.  Have you thought about the other side of things, the paperwork, admin etc.

You may not have signed a contract but as you have been employed for a number of years you may find that you will still be under contract in the eyes of the law and part of that contract will be that as an employee you are not allowed to do anything that may damage your employer financially and by taking a customer you will be doing this.  You are effectively biting the hand that feeds you.

Your employers are mad not to have contracts in place with the clients so yes they can just leave but if they do that to this company what's stopping them from doing that to you.

The reason people get away with this behaviour is that companies often find it to long and expensive to follow a claim through.  However court claims can now be done on line for as little as £30 and they are very straight forward.  If I was your employer I would definately take you court for loss of earnings.

Fox

shelton

  • Posts: 175
Re: office contract
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2007, 10:06:48 am »
hi i was wondering if anybody can help, im currently going to go self employed soon doing cleaning currently doing it now for 3yrs,(domestic) i also clean and office twice a wk  how can i organise a contract as i can really undercut my bosses as they only pay me £6.00 p/h they make £59 profitevery wk, now i have spoken to the bosses as they are all for it as i have been doing this office for over 2yrs now, the company im with have on a couple occassions called me and said there no work have the day of but i find out the other girls r in customers are not happy and said if i leave  so will they..also im having to go out on my own as they sacked the girl i was with but not going to replace her do u reckon i should just get up n go, cleaning products they r trying to really cut back to 1 bottle of everything per wk, its a joke thanks for reading

 :o

u cud try 2 lern betta gramma nd punk-chew-ashun - it mite help u get a contr@ct.

J. Deans

Re: office contract
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2007, 12:44:31 pm »
True about the grammar!

But I think you are all being a bit harsh.
Consider the facts:

Vix works for a low wage.
Her company cannot even be bothered to compose a written contract of employment.
She is expected to carry out work that normally 2 people would do.
"One bottle of everything per week!" Come on!

But most importantly, the client is happy with Vix, but are unhappy with the company he works for.

I say, all is fair in business. If Vix goes ahead without any contractual problems, I say good luck to her. In fact I would advise Vix not to under-cut the (previous) employer by too much - if at all! You are in demand, use that to your advantage.

As for this being the dread of employers (staff taking over contracts) It usually only happens (there are exceptions of course) when those staff are underpaid and unhappy, for whatever reason, with their employer.

Go for it Vix - and good luck.
But don't write your own letters of introduction, method statements etc.
Let someone else do that for you...

Cleaning Resource

  • Posts: 495
Re: office contract
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2007, 04:01:30 pm »
If I had such a bad relationship with any of my clients that I had to worry about my staff (who are all exceptionally good cleaners) being able to take one of my contracts of me I would not bother running my business any more.........

everyone I speak to who has lost a contract blames the cleaner when in actual fact it is rarely the cleaners fault.

If companies trained and supported their staff properly then the cleaning industry would not be such a mess with such a bad reputation.

I have taken on many a contract with supposedly useless staff TUPE over to me, only to find that with a bit of training and support they turn out to be good cleaners,
yet it was them that the previous company blamed for losing the contract!!!!!!!!!!

spending 2 hrs with someone on their first day on the job is not training, yet that is what most cleaners get.........and I bet plenty of you on here have done it, show them around, give them the key, see you in a week............... :o


J. Deans

Re: office contract
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2007, 01:21:14 pm »
Well said!

Cleaning Resource

  • Posts: 495
Re: office contract
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2007, 03:08:51 pm »
thankyou ;D

Fox

  • Posts: 824
Re: office contract
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2007, 05:24:26 pm »
No not everyone blames the cleaners!  There are alot of reasons why a site may be lost one of them is money!  When a cleaner undercuts the company they work for to get a job it is unacceptable.

You are correct with the TUPE and management and I have found that people will either shape up or ship out when a good management team goes in, however there are always the exception to the rule and until you have been there you will never understand.  Many years ago I gave, who I considered a good friend, a job so she could help ends meet.  I trained her in H&S, COSHH etc etc and made sure she was aware of the standards expected had the training to carry it out and the support, she took all of this and started her own business taking the client with her.

I still train all of my staff and give them good support, but it will never surprise me again as to the levels people will stoop too.

I am not saying Vix or any of you had not been treated badly but I have my opinions and they are very strong.

I don't think i have a bad relationship with any of my clients, infact i haven't lost one single contract for over four years, however I thought I had a good relationship with the client mentioned above and look what happened, when I asked them about it - yes you can guess it came down to money!

So maybe I'm being harsh but morals of an alley cat come to mind!

Fox

Cleaning Resource

  • Posts: 495
Re: office contract
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2007, 10:56:14 pm »
You obvoisly do not feel the same, but if any of my staff wanted to start up on their own then I would be more than happy to help them even if it meant giving them a contract or two to get them going, especially if it was a friend.

your going on like there is a shortage of customers, I like to see everyone doing well and will do anything I can to help anyone who requires it. there is more than enough work out there for everyone.

As for being undercut, I actually write in all my quotes that we do not aim to be the cheapest so my customers def know there is cheaper out there but they choose my company because they feel the price is worth it, why would they then accept a cheaper quote from someone else?

If you are providing an excellent service of which you say you are then your company will be a success no matter how many competitors are working in your area.




Fox

  • Posts: 824
Re: office contract
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2007, 10:36:36 am »
Ahhh - that's really nice - let's hope all of your staff don't want to do it, you'd have no contracts left if you are giving them away!  Personally I have worked very hard to gain each and every one of my contracts and no way would I just give away 13K plus per annum worth of work (income from average sized, main sorts of contract).  Maybe your contracts are only a couple of hundred of per year so you can afford to give them away, either way, I'm glad you can afford to be nice.

Personally I am a b**ch especially when it comes to business, that's how I make money, run a highly succesful business and enjoy every minute of it.  (Please note that doesn't mean i don't care about my staff or clients I'm just not in the habit in giving away what I've worked hard for).

Like I've said before each to his own and obviously you are a nice, considerate, generous kind of guy and - I'm not!  ;D

Fox

Cleaning Resource

  • Posts: 495
Re: office contract
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2007, 02:39:07 pm »
I just like to see people do well and I have alot of respect for any one with ambition,  I have a rule of only starting 2 new contracts each month to allow for our full attention whilst we get each new contract up to our standards, this means future clients have to wait or go else where, which they sometimes do but it doesn`t matter cos there is such an abundance of work.


newbroom

  • Posts: 307
Re: office contract
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2007, 05:08:20 pm »
 Vix

I'm curious to how you know your bosses make 59 pounds profit each week who told you this ?. Was it the client? if so how does the client know what your employers liabilities/costs are.

If you are so keen to be self employed go out and find your own work don't poach. I bet at your interview you didn't say six pounds an hour is not acceptable.

What you have done is seen an opportunity to the detriment of your employer. Instead of informing your employer that the client is unhappy with the overall service, you thought i take advantage of this situation.

I actually think that what your doing is low and makes you a parasite.

Like Fox if you tried to do this to me i'd take you through the legal process  fast as possible. 


newbroom

  • Posts: 307
Re: office contract
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2007, 09:33:14 pm »
 I sincerely hope that when you have your new contracts and take on staff that your staff do the same to you then you will know just how underhand you are.

People like you deserve to fail and i hope you do.

newbroom

  • Posts: 307
Re: office contract
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2007, 10:03:13 pm »
In your original post you stated that all was not well with the office cleaning, yet in your response to my first post you state

"i have spoken to customers pre-warning them and they have all said let me know as we will come with you"

Which leads me to believe that you are approaching all your employers clients that you are aware of to start your own business. You have come on this site bleating about how unfair your lot is, reading between the lines you are without scruples

I don't think you would recognise morals if it came up a took a bite of your backside.

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: office contract
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2007, 02:49:08 pm »
Interesting thread, on one hand we have those who believe that Vix has been poorly treated, the other, people who believe she has brought this all on herself!

Lets start at the beginning, Vix, has never been given a contract of employment, by either of her companies, this is not only morally wrong, but also illegal, it is the law that each employee is issued such a contract within 13 weeks of starting their employment, it is considered best practice to issue the contract of employment after the employee has accepted your written offer of employment.

Regarding Vix poaching clients, be they domestic or commercial, this again is morally wrong, but not illegal, unless specifically, forbidden in your contract of employment, which, remember she has not been issued with.

Now, of course there are two sides to every story, but we only have Vix's side of things, so lets just take her at her word, both her present and previous employer seems to have treated her very poorly, but from their side of things, could it not be, just poor management? Both companies, could have held the opinion, that Vix, needed little if any supervision, because she is a crackerjack cleaner, who gets on well with the clients, and does the job right! If this is indeed the case, then, more fool them, for not realising that ALL STAFF require encouragement and rewarding, perhaps in Vix's case promotion and better wages along with more responsibility, if the companies concerned have failed to recognise talent and hard work then tough, the industry can do without them.

Others have mentioned the importance of doing things the right way, this I wholeheartedly agree with, just because you are self employed, does not mean you should be exempt from H & S legislation or indeed any other regualations, so get this sorted, yes its going to cost money, but failing to do this, puts you in exactly the same league as your previous employers, so if you go ahead with out this, you really wouldnt be any better than them.

In response to newbrooms post, you got very defensive over how you have come to know the exact amount billed by your present employer to one of his clients, the sum of £59:00 was mentioned, you seem to believe that this is all profit and way too much considering that you do all the work!

Well once you become self employed, you will of course realise, that the £59:00 has to cover insurance/admin/training/tax/VAT/chemicals/equipment/consumables etc, etc, of course, it maybe that your present employer doesnt pay any of this, and indeed the entire amount is all profit, but it is only a matter of time before he gets caught out.

I can only guess that you have come by this figure after talking to your present employers client, this in my opinion, should set alarm bells ringing, after all if your client discusses such matters with a companies cleaners it does point to a less than professional attitude in that persons dealings, as has been pointed out by others, it also means that the same thing could happen to you somewhere down the line.

Cleaning, is a business worth billions of pounds per year, it should be treated as such by those engaged in serving clients, and indeed by the clients themselves, long gone are cash in hand and little old ladies pushing a vacuum around, however most clients and indeed most involved in serving those clients needs do not have a clue how to actually clean a building correctly, you only have to look at the number of posts on here crying out for help when things have gone wrong.

My final piece of advice would be to visit the following people or organisations before you start trading:

Bank
Accountant
Tech College
Business Link
Chamber Of Commerce
Health & Safety Office
Tax Office
VAT Office
Commercial Solicitor

All the above will keep you on the right track, and help ensure that you dont become just like your present employers, they will also increase your chances of actually making a living from this industry, after all, no one in any other industry would give you a job without any knowledge of that particular industry, cleaning is no different, it is, after all, a business.

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

newbroom

  • Posts: 307
Re: office contract
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2007, 06:30:33 pm »
I don't see why Vix should get the benefit of the doubt.If we accept that there are issues with the service levels at the office she cleans are we then expected to be believe that the exact same conditions apply at all the other clients she has approached.The balance of probabilities suggest not.

I don't believe for one instance that during her three years of employment she never had a interview or wages weren't discussed

I don't understand how in her post she makes the following staements

"i can really undercut my bosses as they only pay me £6.00 p/h"

and later this

"all im on daytime is minium wage"

Either she is paid minimum wage topped up by an allowance e.g. attendance or performance related or she paid using a new flexible minimum wage that the government has yet to put on the statute books.

Cleaning Resource

  • Posts: 495
Re: office contract
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2007, 10:24:20 am »
Nothing you are saying new brooms is either constructive or interesting to read, you`re just picking holes £6 ph is virtually min wage,

I took 2 contracts of my old boss because he tried to give me a scoda felicia as a company car, he did not listen when I told him his customers were not happy and a whole host of other reasons but mostly cos I was not going to turn down the chance to immediately double my income and I was not going to drive a scoda.

I don`t see what the difference is between taking a contract of my old boss and taking a contract from any one else, am I supposed to feel guilty whenever I win a new contract because it means some poor sole has lost out.

I have worked in the cleaning industry for over 13 yrs from cleaner to area manager and the scenario vix explains is extremely common so in the balance of probabilities (as you put it) it is more likely that a cleaner will suffer from bad employment conditions than good.

Most of the cleaning industry is made up of part-time, unqualified (usually of anything!) people who have the attitude of "it`s only cleaning, how hard can it be". Even most of the area supervisor and managers jobs are dished out as part time jobs.
All just so that their employers have not got so much paper work to do and national insurance contributions to pay for their staff and you call us parasites when you probably only employ part time staff yourself for the exact same reason.

Some of my cleaners are earning £9 per hour, they are all employed full time, they are all constantly undergoing training paid for by me, If I changed to part time cleaners I would prob be about £1000 month better off, If I payed them all min wage i`d be save another £2k, I could put them in cheap polo shirts instead of the smart uniforms they have now and save some more and I could knock the training on the head and have a holiday with the money instead..........

But I don`t because I`m not a parasite,

I have never lost a contract but if I did it would be my fault no matter how I lost it. If one of my staff took a contract from me it would be my fault for not having a good enough relationship with both my customer and my staff member, as I said before I would not hold back any one who works for me, if they have put in the hard work for me then why should I.


 


   

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: office contract
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2007, 11:28:02 am »
Now, now gleam, dont be so hard on the poor old Skoda, a VW without the kudos!

Apart from that, someone who finally gets it!!!

Regards,

Rob

PS.

Have you made your decision yet Vix?
A world of difference....