[matt]

i just hope that people take it seriously, afterall its OUR livings that are stake not the "system makers" as they have made there money

Philip, as you were at the meeting to report on things, who was it who was being childish and sticking his 2 fingers up and shouting silly remarks at the panel

this might show how serious some took it and some didnt  : :

so i guess philip doesnt want to report this then, as i certainly do not want this type of person representing the industry

[Clive McDonald]

Defra are looking for ideas and relevant salient points. If Trevor makes them while others argue who the most important or representative person is that's fine by me too.

They know we don't like drought orders, they know that we don't think we should be affected by them, none the less we are going to be. Philip, please say something constructive or pipe down.

[Philip Hanson]

I must say, I am quite impressed about something that has just happened.

I've been involved in many discussions, some heated, on these forums and rarely has someone I have been in discussion with had the guts (or common sense?) to actually pick up the phone and make contact with me personally.

I am pleased to say that Trevor Knight has taken the iniative to do this, and I have nothing but respect for him for doing so.

We have talked about the discussion you see here, the apwc and other matters relevant to window cleaning, and it is clear to me (more so even than it was before) that Trevor is a well informed and sincere individual who, as I have never doubted, has the best interests of the industry at heart.

May I thank you Trevor, I feel that we have much in common, and are now both able to see each others point of view in a far better way.

Communication must be a key factor in moving any issue forward, and I am very pleased that this topic has resulted in a positive outcome (for me anyway)

-Philip

[Trevor Knight]

Thank you Philip,

Likewise I am glad we spoke and you now understand what the APWC is trying to achieve.

Any help or advice you may be able to offer is greatly appreciated.

I look forward to meeting with you soon.

regards,

Trevor

[Paul Coleman]

i just hope that people take it seriously, afterall its OUR livings that are stake not the "system makers" as they have made there money

Philip, as you were at the meeting to report on things, who was it who was being childish and sticking his 2 fingers up and shouting silly remarks at the panel

this might show how serious some took it and some didnt  : :

Not me !!  Mind you, I do plead guilty to a brief heckle at the Surrey & Sussex drought order hearing 
I'm afraid the guy was peeing me off with his suggestion that 6 months without income wasn't too bad.  I produced a counter suggestion that when we were all homeless and bankrupt, we could go and stay at his place.  Not very productive but if I were in his shoes and threatening to pull the plug on the sole income of thousands of people, I would be grateful that they restricted themselves to one person doing a brief heckle.  The idiot deserved it anyway for coming out with such garbage.

[Paul Coleman]

Thank you Philip,

Likewise I am glad we spoke and you now understand what the APWC is trying to achieve.

Any help or advice you may be able to offer is greatly appreciated.

I look forward to meeting with you soon.

regards,

Trevor

I'm glad you two have discussed this stuff over the phone.  Text only media have a bad habit of resulting in garbled communications.

[JohnL]

So what is the underlying message here?

WFP is '' forced '' on WCers for H & Safety reasons but now the realisation of the reliance of an unlimited supply of water to feed this industry is giving people cold feet!

Grey water! - perhaps for the big boys with unlimited budgets! I dont think so for the average Joe-WCer!

Any other suggestions to how WFPers are to proceed in the future if Water Companies get their way?

[Bobs Window Cleaning]

Excuse me for being a thickie but what is GREY WATER?

Ive heard of MURCKY water tho

[Russell Macdonald]

We have 500 homes been built in this area in the next 12 months but thats not a problem when it comes to water for them.

We have mass immigration but there is no problem when it come to water for them.

Industry uses millions of ltrs every day, again, that fine.

I dont even use 5000ltrs per 4 weeks but they want to ban me from using wfp. No way, we are easy targets that wont make a slight bit of difference, it just looks good for them.

Macc

[Trevor Knight]

We have 500 homes been built in this area in the next 12 months but thats not a problem when it comes to water for them.

We have mass immigration but there is no problem when it come to water for them.

Industry uses millions of ltrs every day, again, that fine.

I dont even use 5000ltrs per 4 weeks but they want to ban me from using wfp. No way, we are easy targets that wont make a slight bit of difference, it just looks good for them.

Macc

Totally agree!!

[AuRavelling79]

Can someone with more ability than me put across to the powers that be:-

1. WFP has come about and increased largely due to the increasing amount of Health and Safety regs that restrict the use of ladders on safety grounds.

2. That if a w/c (out of desperation) reverts to ladders and sustains injury then might there be a legal liability because he has had a safer method of working withheld from him?

On the giving side:-

Yes w/c may have to do ground floor work by trad. methods (typically 60% on houses due to more doors/patios at a lower level) in drought situations.

Paying for our water commercially may be necessary. (And being allowed to use it)

On the sustainibility side:-

Having a system for collecting rainwater in the winter and purifying and pumping
it should be encouraged and some sort of certification to say that is what we do.

And a cheaper version of Ionics "suck and vac" system will be developed.

[Jeff Brimble]

Good reply Malc but we are the powers that be  , we are in control ?   I like the rainwater useage and will try to do more myself.
Quote "And a cheaper version of Ionics "suck and vac" system will be developed"
controversially I use 1/3rd to 1/2 litre per min, on the record as saying I use less than 1/4 bucket per house. All you need is an open mind and a control or tap.

[Russell Macdonald]

A trigger on the pole is what is needed. Gaz was pushing this idea & its great. My avarage days use over the month is less than 200ltrs.

Friday was a long day & i only used 225ltrs, before i fitted triggers to my poles i always used a min of 400ltrs a day.

I think manufactures should fit triggers to poles. I also think we should have them on our poles if its domestic.

With microbore & triggers i have halfed the amount of water i use.

Macc

[DASERVICES]

Sorry for bringing this back but all the bodies FED, AWPC, Clear Choice need to set aside their differences and work on this together. Something like this needs to be researched and a detailed report ( not one page with signatures but at least 4 - 5 pages) with graphs showing what impact it will have on window cleaners who have invested in WFP.

This will only work with with these people , you will need to sell it to them and research if they are stopped what compensation you can claim etc... There is always a way and a loophole but you need to do a lot of research.

You are dealing with peoples livelyhoods and therefore please take this into consideration.

Cheers

[JohnL]

Well said DA

This WC industry is huge and covers the whole country. It is made up of many thousands of individuals of which some have come together from need and formed groups with specific aims which may or may not overlap.

Due to very recent but foreseeable events, this industry and its lively-hood, could be under threat directly from the agencies which imposed its mode of operations ie WFP.

As DA indicates above, this industry needs cooperation, coordination and a joint and well thought out response and approach to the potential problems raised by the threat to question our right to use water as needed in the pursuit of working in a safe environment as directed initially by the EU and fully supported by this Government who now sees problems in the enactment of those directives.

I see serious implications for the use of WFP if certain elements of this industry are allowed to pursue  restrictive practices and override the Health & Safety directives with the controlled use of water.     

[Clive McDonald]

The coonsultation was about this country's reponce to expected future water shortages because of global warming.

This responce would be partly in the form of drought orders, and these are predicted to be more common (every year) and last longer. They also need to be more(DEFRA says) far reaching in their effects and enforcement (IE include window cleaners and car valleters).

This is a national issue and it should be borne in mind that during any severe drought it would be daily national news and the climate towards people using water in any way that was percieved as wastefull would be hostile. We could well be viewed with about as much public sympathy as a drunken driver.

Many customers would ask you not to bother, both because of what they thought and additionsaly what their neighbours may think.There is also the possibility that by allowing you to clean (WFP) they would be breaking the law and liable to prosecution.

When laws are enacted they have to be adhered to. Our livelehoods would come very low down on the list of priorities. In a severe drought the public climate could be almost hysterical and rabid towards us.

You will remember also from previous droughts, that these things extend often after we have been having several weeks of heavy rain.

Because of this I think rain water collection and grey water usage are the way forward, and not just for the big boys but for all of us.It may wel cost £2000 to fit a proper harvesting system but if this reduces water bills, gets the enviromental people off our backs and allows us to work unchallenged in even the severest drought order then it has to be the best option.

Pretending that we won't be affected, or argueing that we shouldn't be affected, is sophistry.

[Paul Coleman]

The coonsultation was about this country's reponce to expected future water shortages because of global warming.

This responce would be partly in the form of drought orders, and these are predicted to be more common (every year) and last longer. They also need to be more(DEFRA says) far reaching in their effects and enforcement (IE include window cleaners and car valleters).

This is a national issue and it should be borne in mind that during any severe drought it would be daily national news and the climate towards people using water in any way that was percieved as wastefull would be hostile. We could well be viewed with about as much public sympathy as a drunken driver.

Many customers would ask you not to bother, both because of what they thought and additionsaly what their neighbours may think.There is also the possibility that by allowing you to clean (WFP) they would be breaking the law and liable to prosecution.

When laws are enacted they have to be adhered to. Our livelehoods would come very low down on the list of priorities. In a severe drought the public climate could be almost hysterical and rabid towards us.

You will remember also from previous droughts, that these things extend often after we have been having several weeks of heavy rain.

Because of this I think rain water collection and grey water usage are the way forward, and not just for the big boys but for all of us.It may wel cost £2000 to fit a proper harvesting system but if this reduces water bills, gets the enviromental people off our backs and allows us to work unchallenged in even the severest drought order then it has to be the best option.

Pretending that we won't be affected, or argueing that we shouldn't be affected, is sophistry.

There is certainly some mileage in rain water harvesting.  If I lived in a house I would probably already have the beginnings of such a system in place.  Living in a flat makes such a thing impossible for me - not least because there would be no viable way of preventing my supply from being stolen.  Grey water is feasible but would really wear out membranes much more quickly unless there is an alternative way of filtering before getting to them.  It would possibly be more realistic to set things up so that grey water was used for things other than WFP filtering and the cleaner water (that you have saved by using grey water) could be used for the WFP?
Of course some of the above relies on it actually raining sometimes.
I will probably move from this flat but not for around 3 years.  Only then would I really be able to set something up properly.
Of course nobody seems to be suggesting that the water companies should be subjected to any inconvenience.  Where I live, 85% of the water supply is dependant on underground water.  Only 15% comes from reservoirs.  In the warmer weather, the dry ground and plant roots absorb any rainfall.  The underground supplies are only replenished during a few winter months - if it rains of course.  There seems to be far too much reliance on these underground supplies and really we need a couple of large reservoirs so that more replenishment can take place even in the warmer parts of the year.