[Mike Halliday]

some people like to think that building a portable is equal to  the complexity of the space shuttle  :

Snake oil salesmen springs to mind

So we have;

2-3 vac motors.

1 pump.

1-2 power cords.

a clean water tank.

a dirty water tank.

vac hose.

forget about the pump And the clean tank they don't really add to the vacuum performance of the machine ( which is what we are really intersted in)

what we are after is the perfect plumbing of the vac motors into the waste tank, each motor must be allowed to pull its maximum about of air out of the waste tank, so if using 3 vac motors then each unit must have its own entry point into the dirty tank.

I used to have 3x3 stage vac motors pulling through a single entry point, I can see how this design would cause the vac motors to 'fight' each other & how 3 motors would not work at full performance haveing to all pull through 1,  2inch hole.

I now have 3 entry points into my waste tank so each pull seperately  fron the other 2.

To me this is the best design to get maximum performance from 3 vac motors.

can anyone give me specific ways to  change my design to increase the performance.

Mike

[Martin_Bignell]

Mike,
Why do you keep farting about with fan vacuums, I thought that your machine was based on a Bane Clene.
Have you not geared up your pulley wheel on the main motor? My one is now converted to 4.25 inches and the wand is howling so much that I am thinking of downsizing it again to 4inch.
Do you rate fan vacs more than a blower.
Cheers Martin.

[Ed Valentine]

Mike;

I think I understand what you are trying to convey in basic terms listing the basic components of "a machine." And, I guess in basic general terms you are somewhat correct.

However, I must admit, after personally having the experience on both sides of the fence so to speak--as a Professional operator; then later as a manufacturer, I only then began to realize what  and how the little things (we refer to as design/engineering) change the signifigant over-all performance and efficiency of a machine.

For example, are we only selling numbers here: Is a  400 psi pump the same no mater what model or how we design it into the system? Do all pumps just "squirt" water the same way with the same surface impact?

Hardly.

Now, I'm not here to give away all the water in the canteen so to speak, but, if your premise was true, all machines would be square or round. That would be the most economical way and common sense way too.

Finally, your reference to: "Snake oil Salesmen":

I would hope that that reference would not include myself , or if I may suggest, the  honorable John Bolton who has spent many, many years to my knowledge on both engineering and design and has contibuted many ideas on these boards referring to such. I have a ton of admiration for JB as you all know and I think that he ---and I'll include myself btw---have run the test of time or creditability and hopefully have contibuted to our terrific Industry.

Sharing of information and different ideas can either help people progress, or those individuals can just stroll on by in life. We all have a choice to listen or tune out I guess.

The very best Mike . I meant no personal harm in my comments and I honor our differences the way we see black and white.

Good Fortune to all;
Ed Valentine
cross-american corp.

[Mike Halliday]

So I guess the answer to my question is.... no.

no one can give me specific ways to increase my performance :

Ed once again show his talent for typing a lot and saying nothing

Martin I keep farting around with vac motors because when i was a kid I had a Meccano kit and enjoyed building things, now I like to build carpet cleaning machines

I've chucked the base unit out of the van and just use the tanks & reels of the Bane set-up.

Mike

[paulchambers]

Prehaps all you need is go faster strips  

[Martin_Bignell]

Mike
Are you bringing your van to the Carpex show? If so canI have a look at your machine.
Cheers Martin.

[Mike Halliday]

martin, I'm coming on the train. but when you look in my van theres no 'machine' to see,the pump is sat on the rear-nearside wheel arch and part of the vacuum system is hidden behind the waste tank ( next too where the pipes come through the van floor). It leaves lots of space for other 'stuff'

Mike  

[Ian Gourlay]

Ed,

I have great respect for you, However Mike has been experimenting and adapting his equipment for years.

Ed will your machine be at Carpex. will there be astipped down version so we can take pictures.


Just an Idea perhaps JB could run a Seminar at Carpex on self build machine or improving secondhand ones as until recentley legend has it that is how he aquired his\ equipment.

Hope I have not offended  anyone

Mike could run one on marketing  what works .

In other words would be good to showcase some of our contributors

[Ivar_Haglund]

put a vacumm booster closer to the wand



IVAR :

[Dynafoam]

Ian,

When I acquired the Recoil 3HP, which was the first machine that I had not built myself, I commented extensively on aspects of its' design.

However, there were certain elements that I have discussed with Ed only in private, since I felt that public disclosure would  compromise the effort that has already been put into the development of the machine.

When making public comments about any cleaning machine I am mindful of the fact that disclosure of less obvious design aspects may be tantamount to industrial espionage.

What Mike is doing is commendable (and great fun) but changing circumstances could lead him to develop commercially the fruits of his labours. If that were the case would he welcome someone saying "Don't give him the money just do this........".

Not all design aspects are obvious to inspection and sometimes important aspects are not fully patented. I have no desire to pull the rug from beneath anyones business so I shall continue to limit my comments.

John.

[Mike Halliday]

In some ways I've got a bit of a bee in my bonnet with the subject of machine design and manufactures giving specific details on the way there machines work.

None of us have the capability to mass produce machines so any design features we copy will be just in our garages on our own machines, like I've already said if a competitor wanted to copy a machine they could just go out and buy one. Giving away secrets on this board won't harm any company.

I can see how Ed  & bob  want  to protect all the effort and time they have put into making their product, but in some ways I think they believe they are like chefs not wanting to give away their recipe for a unique apple pie because then we could all copy it in our kitchens.

By giving spcific details why their machine is better than others it will help the credibility of their company, at the moment I think the Recoil is just a Ninja with an extra vac motor chucked in

I've just bought my wife a new car ( I'm soooo generous )  while shopping around we picked up brochures on  a variety of different cars  these brochures contained every design feature on the car right down to the material used on the steering wheel. this helped us make a informed choice on the best car for us.  why can't portable be sold this way.

If anyone wants to dispel the snake oil salesmen image then give us facts, not a history lesson

Mike

Ps I use the 'snake oil salesmen' referance only as a comparrison not as an insult I know we're all upstanding, honest blokes on this site

[shaun_pearson]

on the subject of machine design, do any of the portables on the market have a valve for dumping excess cleaning solution from your clean tank?  how do yous get rid of it?

[Mike Halliday]

Suck it out with your vac hose!

Mike

[Dennis]

Or if you are tight, like me, pump it out into a container.    (A piece of pipe with a male quick connect before you ask)  

[Dynafoam]

Shaun,

I use a combination of the methods mentioned by Mike and Dennis.

Some of the clean tank contents (in my case plain water usually) is used to rinse round the inside of the waste tank. The bulk of any remainder is then pumped away until the pump is in danger of running dry.

Then, because I like the clean tank completely empty of water and any other grit/debris that may have entered, I suck the remainder out, thereby also rinsing the inside of the vac hose.

The Recoil 3HP  does have the facility to lift out the yellow bypass-return hose and empty the tank through that by simply leaving the pump running.

John.

[Dynafoam]

Mike,

If you can bake Pierre Le Chef's pie in your kitchen, Henry the Cook can bake it in his café round the corner.

John.

[Ed Valentine]

Gentlemen;

I once again, Thank JB for his truthful comments and the way he does it in a very diplomatic way. Being a master of building equipment, he certainly has terrific ESP.

Shaun-  As JB also pointed out, the RECOIL-3HP does have provisions for emptying the soltuion tank w/o the strain of vacuum motors &/or strain on amp draw.

Ian-  The RECOIL-3HP will be at the Carpex Show. And, a sincere Thanks for your comment too.

Ivar-  Glad to see that you like your POWER BOOSTER System and you have learned the versatility of it too.


Mike-  Although I must admit with a bit of sadness that I have never been told that I had a nack for saying nothing after all the effort/thought I put into pounding these keys.

However, I can tell that I must be "alittle older" than you and therefore, along with that has come alittle bit thicker skin too---for situations like this. (Hey, were you ever the playground bully?)

So, no, there are no hard feelings from here and perhaps sometime soon, you and I will be shaking hands tipping a few. (Just watch your wallet!---LOL)




Just kidding ofcourse.

The very best to our British friends
& Good Fortune to your families too;
Ed Valentine
cross-american corp.

[Bob_Savage]

Mike,

You have it right, as far as the AO design. One can put together a machine such as you described, and it may work quite well, but there are a lot of other things involved in designing an extraction system.

Other than the correct components being selected, you have to choose the right hardware. We use ALL stainless steel hardware in our electronic truckmounts. We select all components on the basis of their quality, and how perfectly they fit our design of the systems themselves. We choose to go for quality to reduce the chance of any downtime, because downtime is money and time lost. I'm sure Ed does the same thing.

Believe it or not, the design of the recovery tank does have a positive affect on the amount and strength of the vacuum system itself. It's called "wind tunnel testing", and we do that here.

The machine should be well constructed, able to withstand abuse,  be easy to use, clean out, and service. It should also be easy to transport from one job to another, and when being used for cleaning, whether inside or out of the vehicle.

Let us all know how the machine works out for you.


Best regards,

Bob Savage
SAVAGE-1 truckmounts


PS - I can show you a picture of the first electric truckmount/portable that we built in 1986/87 if you'd like. We still have it, and the van, although it looks a bit rough on the edges from all the use. And YES, it still works as a backup van if we need it, and does rugs here at our shop. Some of the components are 230V.