[jamiesroom]

Please help!!!
We currently have to submit a quote for a big apartment building with six floors and we have been asked to submit the quote for the communal cleaning of the building with two full time staff on the premises five days a week and the big windows been cleaned in the reception area once a month and all the windows in this apartment building been cleaned twice a year. There is about 20 apartments on each floor by the way to give you some sort of idea of the size of this building and i would be grateful for any advice about what sort of quote to put in, in terms of price for both the communal cleaning of this building and the windows as mentioned above ? And in addition to this what sort of profit margin should be looking to make?

Many thanks.

[Fox]

Hi

Ok quick question - do you have any work similar or is this your 1st of this kind?

I would suggest separating the cleaning and window cleaning (windows being subed).

You're thinking two full time cleaning staff Mon to Fri - right?  Ok then simple - how much are you going to pay them?  How much holiday pay do they require?  How many chemicals and disposables are included that are going to be used? What equipment is involved?  Supervision, management, administration, insurance, uniforms etc?  Work out all of your costs then add your profit margin - hey presto!

A sub contractor for windows will give you a price - because it is part of the job don't look to make a profit on this just add admin costs - usually at 10 - 15%.

Give us more info and update - when has your quote got to be in by?  

Fox

[jamiesroom]

Hi there.....This is the first really big contract we have had to submit a quote for......And yes we are thinking about two full time staff monday to friday.....There seems to be little or no expense with regards to equipment and chemicals as most of the communal cleaning involves hoovering the masses of carpets throughout the communal area and wiping over all the doors and woodwork and reception area weekly....we already have uniforms so we wouldnt want to charge for this.....and we have public liability insurance too.....we plan to pay each member of staff between £250 to £300 a week each and this inclusive of national insurance payments and income tax.....but we havent calculated for holiday pay.....all adminstration is done at a minimal cost and we will be doing the supervision and management ourselves.....But i am still not sure what our profit margin should be on top of all the costs and what an attractive quote would be??......Any help with regards to what sort of figure we should be looking to quote?? As this would really a big help even a ball park figure and what the profit margin should be also??

Many thanks.

[Fox]

OK lets get to the point - between £480 and £520 per week - (make sure it on a 52 weeks a year basis) - should do ok depending on area - this is just for the cleaning - still recommend going sub on windows.

[jamiesroom]

Is this figure between £480 and £520 per week the profit margin and what we can look to earn over each week of the year long contract for the communal cleaning of this building?? And is this after tax or before tax?? And i also think its an excellent idea to sub out the window cleaning as its such a specialised field but firstly where should i go to find a window cleaning team/window cleaner to offer this subcontract too and secondly if they have the public liability insurance themselves to do this six storey building then does that mean that we as a company do not have to have the public liability window cleaning insurance to clean the six storey building ourselves as i know it can be quite expensive and i want to know where we stand legally with regards to having to have a particular type of public liability insurance when you are subcontracting work out??

Many thanks

[Fox]

You need to find yourself a bonafied subcontractor to carry out the window cleaning.  Look in the YP and call your local companies.

The window cleaner should have P&L at least to the same spec as your own.  You need to let your insurance company know that you are subbing to bonafied company.  The other way to do it is estimate how much you will be paying a sub and get this on your insurance as labour only, but can work out expensive.

Didn't explain myself to well on the costings - it was late!  This is basically what you should charge for each full time person you provide so in this instance with two staff a quote would be around £1040 per week at the top end.  This should be inclusive of overheads, you need to do your own sums on this - I'm not here to do your job for you! Work out what is going to cost you to run then subtract it from your quote - you then have your margin.  Yes you do charge 52 weeks of the year.

[jamiesroom]

Thanks....And yes it was very late...lol....What on earth were you doing up at that time??....lol.....We dont actually have window public liability insurance just insurance for our cleaning company.....and so i wondered if a subcontractor being fully insured for windows will be enough or if we have to have our own separate window cleaning insurance too??.....And in addition to this if a company normally asks to see your copy of your public liability insurance before you are allowed to sign a contract to do work on their building??......The other question i have for you is when we do our quote do we put a figure that includes VAT or exludes VAT??

Many thanks again

[Fox]

Gosh - I must be in a helpful mood today!

If your window cleaner is fully insured to the expected amounts (some companies ask for 5 mil rather than the normal 2) then you will not need extra insurance but be sure to let your insurance know you are subcontracting.

It is the norm to show prospective clients a copy of your insurance.

When submitting a quote always exclude vat - make sure you state that clearly.

Fox

[Fox]

Who are your insurers?

[jamiesroom]

Yes you are in a helpful mood today ;D.....i do not have the name of our insurers to hand as we speak.....but it is an english company and we are insured as a cleaning company but not for windows.....if we submit a quote excluding VAT then i would assume that the company we have the contract with will automatically add the VAT on at 17.5%??.....And then pay in us a monthly figure with this VAT included??

Many thanks Foxy (again lol)

[Fox]

You would need to invoice every month or 4/5 weeks and add the vat on your invoice

[jamiesroom]

U have been the greatest help Fox.....So thanks a million.....And if i can help you in anyway then you only have to ask.....Thanks again.

[jamiesroom]

Are you still around Fox?
Another emergency here.....i have gotten a subcontractors quote for the window cleaning i told you about and they have quoted us about  £2,000 to do the communal windows inside and out in this six storey building which will take about two days to do and they have quoted us £300 to do the reception area windows once a month abd while the price for reception area windows is acceptable i am really worrying about submitting this £2,000 quote for the whole building. Do you think that this figure sounds reasonable for a six storey building to do the communal windows? And will this subcontractors quote include VAT? And do you think that this figure will be acceptable/desirable to the company we are submitting it too as what i am concerned about is that we gave them the impression that we have our own window cleaning team which i would assume would mean that we could do the work for less money and put in a lower quote or do you think that whether we have a window cleaning team and do the work directly through our own company or if we subcontract it out that the quotes will still be similar??

Many thanks again lol

[Musicman]

At the risk of falling for a wind-up, and to give Fox a well earned break I'll give you an answer.

If you're not comfortable with the price get a couple of other quotes.

Rather than ask on this forum whether VAT is included try asking the person who quoted.

Most contractors sub-contract window cleaning. Your potential client should understand.

Can I ask if you have read the post on whether the cleaning industry is in crisis? I'm beginning to change my mind on it!

[jamiesroom]

Thanks Musicman,
I will ask the subcontractor if their quote includes VAT and also do what you suggested and get another quote for the windows from another company too that way hopefully i can get a more competitive quote for the window cleaning.
As for that industry poll about whether this industry is in crisis i would imagine that it just depends on who you are working for because there are obviously some lucrative contracts around even just going by the posts that within this forum but i guess that this might not be representative of the industry as a whole.
Last question is there a difference in what the private sector pays and what the public sector pays because a friend of mine told me that he discovered when submitting a quote within the public sector for a four tower block estate in london that all the companies bid within £5,000 of each other and each block has at least 18 floors and these quotes were just for the communal cleaning of each tower block and plus cleaning of the bin sheds and litter picking etc and the quotes were for 4 fulltime staff and all were within the £70,000 region which seems pretty low to me for so much cleaning work and so i wondered if they pay far less in the public sector ie working for council estates than they do in the private sector??

Many thanks.

[acleanerplace]

hi
Ive got to give the same advice as fox your best option is to sub the windows it is very expensive to insure and the outlay can be expensive as big blocks now want reach and wash systems used and at my last quote they wanted to put up my insurance by 75 %
hope this helps

mike

[Philip Hanson]

I'm a professional window cleaner, and I can tell you that in my opinion £2,000 for the building you just described sounds about right.

A good window cleaner will use a pole system (usually reach & wash) on this type of building.  If they are using ladders be sure to check the building owners H&S policy, as there may well be special mention of work at height.  

In any case you should obtain a risk assessment from your window cleaner.  (This may cause them to whinge, but you absolutely must have it)

Something else worth noting :- I regard subcontracted window cleaning work as pretty low.  Most commercial window cleaners hate that type of work, they prefer to deal directly with the building owner themselves rather than through a general cleaning contractor.  This can often lead to poor standards of work (especially if NOT using reach & wash) which you must be careful to control.

Having said that, some window cleaners love it so you might be lucky.

Another point from experience: I have quoted for window cleaning at commercial premises where the window cleaning is tied in with the general cleaning contract.  The building owner was not happy with the window cleaner so asked us to quote, which we did.  Our quote was substantially higher than they were paying their cleaning contractor.  

The reason was that the cleaning contractor did not itemise "window cleaning" correctly on their invoice, making it appear very cheap. (Less than £1 an hour)  They did this so that the building owner wouldnt be able to find a cheaper window cleaner and would have to continue to go through them.  

But this backfired, because they then lost the whole contract because of the rubbish window cleaners (who kept damaging cars).

Had they just put the real price on, they would have kept the cleaning contract, and the building owner would have dealt with window cleaning seperately.  (they probably didnt make much on the window cleaning anyway)

So my advice to you is itemise it correctly, dont try to pretend its cheaper than it is just so it appears that you are giving the customer a good deal.  Lots of companies do that and it drives me round the bend!

Is this a common practice in your experience Fox?

Better still, tell the building owner that they will save money by dealing with the window cleaning themselves, they'll thank you for that and it will save you a load of bother.  And if they arent up to standard you wont get the blame.  

There's no shame in not having "in house" window cleaners, many large cleaning contractors sub out windows.

-Philip

[jamiesroom]

Thanks Philip and everyone else who has kindly offered their advice .....It is very much appreciated.....The original quote of £2,000 is now nearer £4,000 (as our potential clients cleaning requirements have changed) with all the windows and other glass areas ie doors etc being cleaned twice a year plus monthly cleaning of other windows which will cost about £1,000 and so now the quote for the window cleaning of  this six storey building will between £10,000 a year. Someone will soon be  very rich and it wont be me.....lol

Many thanks.

[Philip Hanson]

Just a quick note:  if the window cleaners are planning to use hydraulic platforms (which they may well be for 6 storeys) this is not the best way to do it.  Window cleaners often go for cherry pickers because they seem to be a simple solution.

Cherry pickers are ok, but they are expensive to hire and can cause major disruption at the site.  Also they are always geting stuck in soft ground, and cant be used at all where there is a subterrainian feature (like an underground car park)

For buildings too high for ladders and pole systems, get a ROPE ACCESS window cleaning team.  They are highly specialized and will almost certainly be faster and cheaper than using a cherry picker.  (They simply abseil down the building, cleaning as they go)  Also they'll normally be able to do inside awkward areas such as an atrium with no powered access plant at all.

I know of one company that do this that are IRATA qualified. Having spent a day working with them, I would recommend them without hesitation.  PM me if you're interested.

-Philip

[jamiesroom]

Thanks again Philip for all your advice.....we have already gone through the possible alternatives for the window cleaning of this six storey building and we came to the same conclusion as you....but it is still good to hear it from someone else.....Anyway one other question......If i sub contract this window cleaing out to a window cleaning company will i still have to purchase the window cleaing insurance myself or will it be enough that they are properly insured??......And secondly i would be interested in the window cleaning company you mentioned and if you send me the details i will give them a call to discuss this contract with them.

Many thanks.