[Ken Wainwright]

I thought it better not to continue a thread brought up on the Solutions topic, so I've started afresh.

That old chestnut was mentioned about manufacturers claiming that their products would not leave any soil attractiting residues.

I'd like to raise a logical theory which may not necessarily tie in with the scientific theory, so bear with me, my theory quite often is flawed.  Small amounts of detergent residues will dry to a hard, crystaline residue which does not attract soil. That's what we're always told. However, the grey area for me is this. The detergent residue is hydrophilic, so will it attract atmospheric moisture? If so, it will then do what it's designed to do, which is bond with soil. Hence we have a soil attracting residue.

What started me thinking of this was some time ago, in my early days of micro splitting, A carpet I was cleaning had been zapped with 1001 in a doorway. This was very noticeable during the agitation stage. Despite an even rinse and extra drying strokes, there was a very noticeable difference in dryness of the "home cleaned" area. It was much wetter to the touch. This suggests to me that the detergent residue was attracting and holding onto the water. I'm sure that we've all seen  many examples of home users using proprietory, non-resoiling detergents that do resoil.

So what do you think?

Safe and happy cleaning:)
Ken

[Doug Holloway]

Ken,

This ties in with a post I've just put on another forum about cleaning with plain water.

The 'detergent will not cause resoiling 'argument is in my opinon spurious and I agree with you.If its not going to do anything then why use it.

It reminds me of an old Brian Clough statement when told a player was not off side because he was not interfering with play,Clough replied what the xxxxx's he doing on the pitch then!

Another way of looking at it is why have lots of rinse cycles on a washing machine when one or two will probably get rid of the dirt?

Cheers,

Doug

[Dynafoam]

Ken,

As Doug has written, this discussion is concurrent with the one on another forum. Without  repeating what I have written there and indeed on the other thread on this board, I will say that experience and logic both endorse your theory.

A saucer of Crystal Green - which is sticky to the touch - placed in an airing cupboard to dry, will indeed result in non-sticky crystals. Removed from the airing cupboard and placed in a damper environment for a short time reveals the anhydrous nature of these crystals, and they become softer and noticably sticky.

Many times, whilst doing a pre-clean inspection I point to a blue-grey patch on the carpet and ask "1001 or Vanish"?

I conceed that the good professional cleaner, will leave very much less detergent behind, and that the resoil characteristics of detergents differ but have long thought of detergents in general as a nessesary evil, and aimed at the minimal  applied and maximum amount removed.

John.

[Ivar_Haglund]

Hummmmm

someone named Dynafoam talking about residue


IVAR

[Dynafoam]

Ivar,

The name dates back to a different era, when the only 'extraction' cleaning for carpets consisted of passing a rug between rubber-coated metal rollers.

I designed a system where the carpet was shampooed, then extraction-rinsed. At the time I was unable to get sufficient suction power to perform what we now know as HWE, so the use of a high-solids shampoo not only introduced the detergency into the carpet, the foam helped to controll the moisture and hold it in the upper part of the carpet before the rinse/extract stage removed as much as possible.

In those days by far the greatest part of the chemical cost was the de-foamer and the extraction machine required a two-stage recovery tank in order to separate water/foam/sludge and the air used to transport it.

John.

John.

[cleanmac]

Hi to you all

The pertinent question is;

What type of residue is left and how easily can it be removed ,after the carpet has dried?

Imo most chems are residual,whatever it says on the label.
Which is often nothing more than a manufactures interpretation .

All chems we intend to use are subjected to two test to determine resoiling.

1 Dish drying as mentioned in a post above.
2 New carpettiles cleaned with the chem (glued to a piece of ply wood and dropped in an entrance matting recess at a friendly customer) and compare them with a piece untouched by chems and subjected to same amount of foot traffic.

Roughly three types of residue are easily identified and their resoiling effect.

1 The sticky ones
2 The powdery ones (some hard and stuck           together,others dusty,etc)
3 The crystallizing ones.

Type no 1 should not be used as the final stage,ie in the
hwe tank or  a bonnetbuff.

Type 2 and 3 can cause problems depending on their nature,are they hygroscopic,do they cling/bond to the fibre etc.

Type 2 and 3 are only properly formulated if they are easily removed with the next scheduled vacuum or when wet cleaned again.

I am expecting a lot of post from people stating that premature resoiling is not a problem they encounter.

Perhaps they don't recognize the symptoms,I can assure you that resoiling caused by chems and operator errors
is a real and existing problem esp. in commercial carpet care.

David

[Dynafoam]

Perhaps they don't reconise the symptoms,I can assure you that resoiling caused by chems and operator errors
is a real and existing problem esp. in commercial carpet care.

David

This is very true, indeed before cleaning certain low-profile carpets, especially where the backing is impervious, if the carpet has been cleaned before by someone else, I do a 'suds test'. A little water is poured onto the carpet and agitated.  If a lather develops I then clean by water-wetting, agitation, then extract with a rinse agent, sufficient detergent being left behind from previous clean(s).

John.

[cleanmac]

John

That of course is the right way of doing things and sets you apart from the "suck and run" brigade.

I have encountered sticky residual chemicals that don't easily lather up,also rinsing agents that leave a sticky residue.

An other problem is the lack of information supplied by manufactures about the alkalinity reserve in a product.

I have seen severe degradation of polyprop. carpets cleaned  with moderately low ph chems but obviously very high in alkalinity.

David

[Ken Wainwright]

As for removing residues from previous cleans, I can't speak for the other micro splitting formulae, but I was told that the One Step brand will assist with the removal of residues. I wouldn't expect any problems with the others, but perhaps Nick would let us know about Solutions?

Safe and happy cleaning:)
Ken

[Doug Holloway]

Cleanmac,

I'm interested in your experiments but would suggest,

Who are the 'suck and run brigade'?

What is an alkalinity reserve?

Polypropylene is extremely resistant to chemical degradation,one of the enviromental problems for future generation's I'm afraid.

All chemicals are residual,it would be impossible to completely remove anything.It would be just as impossible to remove 'micro splitters' although obviously the less you applied in the first place ,the less there would be to remove.

In my experience residual chemical is more of a problem domestically.

Cheers,

Doug

[Len Gribble]

Ken

I’m no tech buff but what I can say is Christmas week I cleaned my three piece suite with a known brand at the correct dilution rate, this Saturday wife wanted it cleaned again this time I used Solutions I was supplied by the amount of residue I extracted.

Len

[cleanmac]

Hi Doug.

My experiments are easily duplicated and wil confirm your instincts posted on an other forum.

Alkalinity reserve;

The concentration of alkali and /or salts present in a particular product.
But here I have got a funny feeling ,answering a question to which you already know the answer.
You'r not an ex policeman are you?

Chemical degradation;

Loss of colour and greying ,that can not be attributed to wear and /or fibre abrasion,resulting in poor light refraction.


I only do com. carpets and resoiling is a major problem,esp. when a Janitoral contractor is in charge.

Suck and run;

If you have not come across them yet,you will shortly.

Regards.

David.

[nick.solution]

Ken

Solution will reduce the residue left by previous cleans using detergent based chemicals as On Step, being an end user of the product as well as selling it, on sites we have been maintaining over a number of years I can confirm it has made a huge difference to the level of re-soiling by reducing it by a noticable amount,

But then I would say that wouldn't I!!

Best regards Nick

[cleanmac]

Doug

Sorry for the somewhat short tempered reply to your post yesterday.

First of all my "suck and run" comment was not aimed at the people who take the time to participate on these forums.But at the many cc who deliver shoddy work and I am sure we all know of a few.

Secondly;

Imagine ph value as a line of coins,so ie; ph8 will be eight coins side by side.
A second line of eight but now with five extra coins stacked on top of each,will also have ph8 value,but the total alkalinity is the number of all the coins.

That is what I mean by the alkalinity reserve of a particular product
The potential to release all these extra "coins"

Thirdly;
All chemicals are residual, exactly the point I was making !
Although I must admit ,I am probable slighty obsessed about it .
 
Take care

David

[Doug Holloway]

Hi David,

No offence taken,you are obviously a committed carpet cleaner but please note that anything you say may be taken down and used in a court of law against you

Down here we have very hard water which will have a high alkalinity.
I'm not sure how that will affect the alkalinity reserve you mention or whether this would increase the rate of resoiling.
Do you find more highly alkaline chemicals cause greater resoiling problems?

Cheers,

Doug

[cleanmac]

Hi Doug

So far, I have lived in three different countries,in relatively soft water areas in each of them.
I say relatively because even water classed as soft contains noticable amounts of elements,as witnessed on washed cars left to air dry.
There for   none of my "experiments" have been carried out with hard water.
But obviously the amount and nature of elements present in your dissolving medium (ie; hard water) will have an effect upon the chemicals you are trying to dissolve/dilute, less washing powder is needed  in soft water areas etc.

With english being my third language,I don't always get my terminoly right,so please don't get "hung up"by the term alkalinity reserve.But when I have to explain to an employee ,the misunderstanding between ph value and total alkalinity,Ido find they grasp it quicker when I use words such as reserve ,and the analogy of rows and columns,instead of buffered and concentrated

On a practical level,the type of residue left by a product is more important than the ph value or total alkalinity,as far as resoiling is concerned.

Regards

David