[gordons]

Yesterday i put a message on regarding ladders been banned but it kind of turned into a which was better wfp or ladders. I personally prefer ladders but i feel that on most properties these are banned. This is because the law says if there is a safer way of doing it than ladders then it must be used so most window cleaners are breaking the law by using ladders. do you feel this is true and also would you grass another window cleaner in your area if he was using ladders.

[Cleaner Windows]

i wouldnt grass on anyone!!
 im not sure about these "apparent" ladder laws...has a definate law been passed yet?
as far as i knew about it, it was a bit of a grey area at best

[Paul Coleman]

Yesterday i put a message on regarding ladders been banned but it kind of turned into a which was better wfp or ladders. I personally prefer ladders but i feel that on most properties these are banned. This is because the law says if there is a safer way of doing it than ladders then it must be used so most window cleaners are breaking the law by using ladders. do you feel this is true and also would you grass another window cleaner in your area if he was using ladders.

The wording of the law has left the legality (or otherwise) of ladders in doubt - particularly by the use of the word "should" rather than "must".
No way would I grass anyone up to the HSE.  Let the office k nobs who've never been up a ladder in their lives do their own dirty work.

[windows_chepstow]

im not sure about these "apparent" ladder laws...has a definate law been passed yet?

The Working at Height Directive was introduced in April 2005!!! (Or was is 2006?).

It says it's guiding principle is to avoid work at height where-ever possible, and if a job can be practically done from the ground; then that's how it should be done.

Section 6 states how ladders are to be used if working at height cannot be avoided.

It basically says the ladder must be secured by tying it off, using a ladder stabilisation device or any other method of equal effectiveness.

PWC Magazine says the HSE have given window cleaners a period of time to get themselves kitted up with WFP before enforcing the regulations; this ends in Spring.

It also says that the days of just 'plonking' your ladder on the side of a building and climbing up it are over.

Personally, with only (so I believe) around 100 HSE inspectors covering the whole country, I can't see how effective this 'enforcement' will be.

Until house-holders are prosecuted for contracting window cleaners with ladders, then I don't think much will change; and I can't see this happening either.  

I'll still use my ladders when I see fit, regardless of any rules.

[ronaldo]

There are still a few window cleaners in our area who use ladders and if they wish to work like that then good on them,the nextdoor neighbour of one of my houses i do gets cleaned traditionally and the wc cant get 2 windows above the conservatory so i do them for him, no big deal it takes me 2 minutes.
Last week another wc who works off ladders and has done for over 20 years got me a job cleaning a school as he couldnt do alot of it, not a massive job and its only twice a year but its £480.00 a go, thats a holiday every year off one job.
I even asked the old boy if he wanted to help and use my gear and we would split the money.
The reason he passed me this work is because i had about 12 houses on one of his estates and they didnt suit wfp so i gave it to him.
So what i am trying to say is if your clening method is wfp or traditional it shouldnt make any difference we are all in the same trade so lets all get on and help each other to make it as proffessional as we can and show the public that we are skilled tradesmen and offer a service that the public needs, and whistle why you work.

Ron.

[fishman]

Do the powers that be think we just plonk a ladder up willy nilly and climb up regardless of their stance on the floor and the angle they are set at, we take enough crap off people who see our job as only done by people of a lesser degree of intelligance.I think that we are all caring enough of our own safety to assess the risks we take, ie if it dont look and feel safe then you dont do it!
This i feel is a basic survival technique and w/c are and should be capable of risk assessment on any job, if you are not then you wont be doing it long.
For me the risk takers are the signing on brigade and who needs them! Legitimate w/c are by nature, i feel clever enough to say no when the risk outweighs the dollar! GIVE US SOME CREDIT and stop trying to be like Big Brother 

[windows_chepstow]

I've heard of three window cleaners this year dying from falls, and I know two of them were experienced self-employed guys.  We had a whip round for one of their wives.  The other was an athlete, a runner, so I doubt he was part of the 'beer money brigade'.

The third worked from OCS and was just a young lad.

There's also been at least two members of this forum who've admitted falling from ladders and injured themselves in the past few months; and there's many members here, including myself who've experienced a ladder fall.

I can see why HSE are clamping down on how we use ladders.

Sometimes, being experienced and being careful just isn't enough.

[fishman]

See your point, we are all prone to assessing the risk incorrectly, we are human and therefore prone to error, of course whether you are a legitimate business or not makes no differance to the weight on the ladder etc etc which contibutes to a fall, however i think if you are already taking a risk by cleaning the windows(when you are not suppose to) then another risk is easier to take.
My main point is that we are already dictated to on many levels, and falls will happen, keep out of our business, and allow us to assess our own risks, if we then fall we are responsible,  after all we are all grown men who can accept the concequences of our own actions!

[Paul Coleman]

See your point, we are all prone to assessing the risk incorrectly, we are human and therefore prone to error, of course whether you are a legitimate business or not makes no differance to the weight on the ladder etc etc which contibutes to a fall, however i think if you are already taking a risk by cleaning the windows(when you are not suppose to) then another risk is easier to take.
My main point is that we are already dictated to on many levels, and falls will happen, keep out of our business, and allow us to assess our own risks, if we then fall we are responsible,  after all we are all grown men who can accept the concequences of our own actions!

I would exclude employees from what you have said though.  Some employers can be excessive with pressure and an employee who is not strong willed may fear for their job and take the extra risk because of that.

[fishman]

again a good point, its not always easy to say no to the boss as unemployment is sometimes the only other option.This is a subject with many ways to look at it

[windows_chepstow]

I've recently seen a company that advertises itself as 'South Wales's Largest Window Cleaning Company', still using ladders where a WFP would suffice.

Given the current regulation, that surely must lead to some hefty litigation costs if one of their employees takes a fall?