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ColinD

  • Posts: 69
Age Discrimination
« on: September 30, 2006, 09:31:06 pm »
And now it's lobb a grenade time!

As of tomorrow, 1st October, if I apply for a job with your business you must have a good reason as to why you will not employ me. I can be, Gay (No not happy you silly person)  not Gay (that's depressed - mental health), under six weeks pregnant (not my fault your honour)  One legged, short sighted with a hearing aid, but I can drive a ride on a Wetrock, cause my licences says so and I've got a certificate. (Dated 1925, but hey, who cares)
My Mother was an Irish catholic on her Mother's side, her Father was Buddist, who's Father had a filander with a Sikh maid of dubious parentage, from which he was the progengy. My father is a cousin once removed from Ian Paisley (Then all people should be)  on his Father's side, his mother was called Miriam, and her  anticendants can be traced back, via Constainople, and all that went on there,  to one of the twelev tribes of Israel. Me, well I dabbled with spiritulism, became a devout atheist, thoght about making such a powerful enemy so changed to not to sure, will try church at wedding etc. So I have definatley got a chance of you employing me, I think!  Ah as I think then that's score - Zero. On the other hand, I don't have to think, 'cause I could get you Government funding to employ me for not appearing to think!

My plumbing work has dried up, (Plumbing Joke) and can't go back to Poland, Lativia, etc. (can't spell the other accessions states)

I know I talk in a deep voice, but I really did make this frock myself, and I only shave once a week now. It's good. No? It's the drugs.

Yes, of course I know what a broom is, that's all we had to use  to clear up after the Zeppelins when they bombed London,. sorry did I say Zaeppelins, I meant doodlebugs.

Sod it, I forgot you don't have to employ me. I've got a brain cell, and it works, well every other day, 'cause I share it with tBlack Cat  he's sitting on the desk waiting for the transplant, it's his turn to go our and frighten the neighours German Shepherd.

If you wish to employ, a white, anglo-saxon, reasonably intelligent, very experience in the cleaning industry, good looking hunk, with more years on his chassis than a model T Ford, then I suggest you give....

Sorry officer. I was not aware I could .... please let me go... I don't want to go to Cuba... Guantanamo where!
Nils illegitimi carborundum

Mike_Boxall

  • Posts: 1394
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2006, 02:49:57 pm »
Now, Now!

I for one would like to encourage more contribution from Colin. He's obviously quite aware that his posts are likely to create a debate (maybe this is one of his more bizarre posts but the topic is interesting and important nontheless) and that's what the forum is about as much as anything else.

The 'Modern day cleaning industry' topic I thought was excellent, by the way. For those really interested in moving the industry forward we'll have some more interesting topics over the next few months, I'm sure. What we're about to launch is sure to set the cat amongst the pigeons - watch this space!

Regards

Mike




ColinD

  • Posts: 69
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2006, 03:16:43 pm »
Support, well thank you kind sir. The last piece of support I had I had to buy from a Chemists.

A forum such as this must be prepared for the odd maverick and the outspoken, and then somebody like me!
Nils illegitimi carborundum

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2006, 03:58:32 pm »
Just the sticky end of the stick this one, sooner or later the powers that be will legislate standards/regulations etc, throughout the cleaning industry, then the gap between those who play by the rules, and those who don't will become even wider!

Full employment is a laudable goal, but at least 60% of our young leave full time education without the skills required for industry and commerce, nevermind life!

The older generation, at least have a work ethic, most are able to hold a sensible conversation, can add up and take away!!!
Follow instructions, and know how to get on with others, follow the rules and you need have no fear of these new regulations, but it wont really make any diference to those who don't play fair anyway.

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

Mike_Boxall

  • Posts: 1394
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2006, 04:23:48 pm »
OK

So if this topic doesn't really make sense to everyone it's because a couple of posts have now been removed.

If you don't agree with someone's point of view, fine. But making personal insults doesn't do anyone any good and just gets out of control (and, of course, the industry gets to keep it's unprofessional image!)

Let's put it behind us and try again.......

Regards

Mike

Mike_Boxall

  • Posts: 1394
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2006, 04:33:29 pm »
Just the sticky end of the stick this one, sooner or later the powers that be will legislate standards/regulations etc, throughout the cleaning industry, then the gap between those who play by the rules, and those who don't will become even wider!

Hi Rob,

I'm interested to know who you think are those who 'wouldn't play by the rules'. Do you think it is likely to be the bigger players or the smaller ones? How do you think legislation would affect your business for example?

Regards

Mike

ColinD

  • Posts: 69
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2006, 04:52:41 pm »
Hey ho, somebody is really upset! No, I must apologise, I have never fought a war! But I have a friend (strange as it may seem) that knows a man who’s son looks after a dog that used to belong to the niece of a man who was at Normandy! Will that do?

One thing I have learnt in old age is never to take life too seriously; it is just not worth it! There are too many conflicts in this world for us poor mortals to go around creating new ones.

But, and there is always a but, there will always be somebody out in the world ready to bite and fight. Pity!

Well let’s hope this puts and end to this skirmish.

Just as matter of interest, I was in Belfast from 1969 – 1972, but that doesn’t count. It wasn’t a war. Thank god!
Nils illegitimi carborundum

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2006, 05:33:04 pm »
Hi Mike,

In answer to your question, I know of very large firms and a number of small firms who do not play fair, what do I mean by this? Well as an example a very big company, just a couple of months ago, lost a major contract for failing to pay it's employee's the min wage, the client found out, then promptly kicked them out, this contract was by the way worth in excess of £4.5 million per annum!

As you can see from the above example, it is not just new or small contractors that twist and turn, bend and break the rules, however I further believe that Colin D's analysis, that the cleaning industry is bottom of the food chain, is not that far off, here if you forgive me is another example, the client is a small (12 staff) employement law specialist, representing employee's against employer's in tribunals, this employemnt law firm employs one cleaner who does not have an employment contract, does not pay tax or NI.

What is my problem with this?
After all, does not this sort of thing not happen in all industries?

Well, yes, of course it does, but unlike all other industries, the client actively encourages this sort of behaviour, by driving down costs, to such an extent, that the cleaning companies do not have any option but to cut corners, when it comes to H & S, Training, Quality and Employement, which is one of the reasons why the cleaning sector is one of the biggest employer's of immigrants, legal and illegal.

It also explains, why so many within the industry have little if any qualifications, after all you can stick an ad in the yellow pages and away you go.

I have no problem with legislation at all, after all it is supposed to protect me, my company, my staff and my clients, however, if we do not, as an industry get our act together government will enforce those rules and regulations that it see's fit, I have not yet met a politician who has any understanding of our industry, I wonder if anyone has?

The industry knows, what has to happen, in order to raise professionalism, standards, H & S, opportunities, surely we should be the one's leading the way?

If, as I fear, we do nothing, then the government or europe will bring in even more regulation.

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

ColinD

  • Posts: 69
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2006, 06:25:12 pm »
Rob,

Well said. A man after my own heart. I've been saying everything you have just said for years. But whilst the big companies, and you know who they are, drive down costs to the detriment of the front end staff, pay only lip service to H & S and training, all in attempt to maximise profit, then our potential clients will expect the smaller more professional company to provide a better service for a similar cost to the mammoths.

As the Lord god Blair said in 1997, Education, Education, Education. That's us trying to educate the client and the industry as a whole.

Fly-by-night companies setting up overnight, paying cash in hand destroy everything that both you and I and the professionals in the business hold dear.

There is nothing wrong with employing immagrants, as long they are not illegal and can understand English (It's a fundamental H & S requirement) I must say this. In the last few months some of the best and most willing workers have been immagrants. I do not abuse their good nature, I have never done so, not even in the 80's when it was a full head of steam for profit.

One of the best things that has happened to the industry in recent years was the introduction of the minimum wage. But still there are companies(sic) still attempting and succeeding in paying less than minimum wage. It's appalling. Whilst this continues we will always be perceived as the user and abuser industry, and that further lowers our standing with industry as a whole.

Hey, let's all march on London and create a revolution for the sake of the poor and downtrodden! Oh for the few good name of Cleaning Industry as a whole.

Jokes aside, something has to be done. Any ideas?

Colin D.
Nils illegitimi carborundum

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2006, 07:34:11 pm »
Idea's ?

Where's that b****y grenade!!!!!!

Oh, oh, think i've just found it!

Lot's of questions regarding Health & Safety policies, no real questions about Health & Safety programmes! Sort of say's it all really.

One thing that we could all do, that would have an immediate effect, would be to stop making available our own H & S Policies to anyone just starting out.

One, could of course make the argument, that this would make the situation worse, but the amount of people, that assume that a H & S Policy Statement, is a real H & S Policy is frightening. As a basic check, many client's insist on seeing a Health & Safety Policy Statement, if someone new to the industry cannot be bothered to gain at least an introduction to H & S should they be allowed to enter the industry at all?

This does not mean that I am against sharing knowledge or experience, but this would mean we would at least stop people who have no idea of what they are doing entering the industry through the goodwill of others on this site and others.

One other thing that the industry could do very easily, is to lobby the government to insist that all contractors on client's sites supply their client's with a copy of their H & S Policy in full.
The above by the way, relates to all trades, not just cleaning!

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

ColinD

  • Posts: 69
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2006, 07:57:34 pm »
Could not agree more. As I said in a previous posting  (The Modern day Cleaning Industry - What...!) A little knowledge can be dangerous, a little knowledge without experience can be catastrophic.

Like you I have no problem with proffering advce to new comers into the industry, so long as that advice is acted upon and not just used to cover flaws and failings in the contractor. It's a problem.

But where, I have to ask, are the Industry Trade Bodies, the BICSc and the CCA's of this world. They should thumping the drums beating out arguments, representing us, the people that make it all happen. Ivory towers and comfortable positions spring to mind.

Other people reading this, don't ignore the problem, it is as much yours as it is this old codgers and Rob, and our benign moderator. Somewhere in the not to distant future the problem will be acted upon by the E. U and government, and if we don't have our say they will impose upon us something that we either do not require or cannot work with.

Times, they are a-changing - Robert Allen Zimmerman  (Bob Dylan to those who cannot remember the 60's)
Nils illegitimi carborundum

Art

  • Posts: 3688
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2006, 08:51:27 pm »
So Colin what's the answer then?

Would you say the pathway card is the way forward?

Arthur

Mike_Boxall

  • Posts: 1394
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2006, 09:09:56 pm »
Hi Colin / Rob

Well, yes. We have a plan and you’ll be seeing it in action sooner than you think!

For some time now we’ve been developing a cleaning management system that encourages best practice procedures to improve cleaning standards and reduce costs. You’ve probably heard of the i-Clean system but could be forgiven for not understanding exactly how it might benefit you as a contractor.

We all know that the industry is in a mess. But the positive thing is that it’s not just decent contractors that want change. Over 50% of all cleaning contracts change hands every year! End-users are clearly not happy about contract cleaning provision. Can you think of any other company or industry where it’s acceptable to lose half its customers every year. I can’t!

Over the years contract cleaning has suffered both from greedy and unethical contractors and from increased competition and pricing pressure forced on it by end-users. It is almost impossible to do what needs to be done whilst remaining competitive and profitable.

The bottom line is that it takes a certain amount of time to clean a building to a certain standard. Let’s say for example you have an office block and you’ve calculated that to do certain tasks at certain frequencies in certain areas will take 100 hours per week. If you only do 50 hours cleaning, the building isn’t necessarily twice as dirty. In fact, by being quite selective about what gets cleaned and when, and choosing a reactive approach rather than a proactive one, it is surprising how much time can be chopped off without too much impact on quality. Over a period of time though, more and more gets chopped off until a point is reached where acceptable standards just can’t be reached in the budget allowed.

It’s a vicious cycle that starts with a quality contractor quoting to do a quality job for a reasonable price. They know that the job takes 100 hours a week to do it properly and that’s what they quote for. They get the job and everyone’s happy until another contractor comes along and convinces the customer he can do an ‘acceptable’ job for less money. What he’s really doing is just quoting for 90 hours of cleaning. The customer thinks they’re getting a better deal and changes contractor (because of TUPE though, they don’t change the staff, so they just get the same people doing less of the same thing). 12 months later along comes another contractor and quotes on the work based on 80 hours. 12 months after this, the client is starting to get complaints and tenders the process again. All the time, the input hours are being cut to make a profit for the contractor and to satisfy the clients increasingly unrealistic budget.

Then one day, it just gets to the point of no return. Contractors know that they’ll be under staffed from the start and the customer will never agree to a significant rise in costs to get in back to where it should be. You have to accept the situation or not get the work. This is the situation today with many, many contracts

So who’s to blame? The clients are the ones driving the cost down but they are encouraged by contractors that simply mislead them. For example, how many contractors are there out there that have  approved BICSc training centres but have very few BICSc trained operators on their sites? It looks good in their pr material and you can’t expect the client to check what proportion of the staff actually benefit from it. Clients, often, are just ignorant of it all – that’s why they get contractors in in the first place.

What can now manage the whole client / contractor relationship through the i-Clean tender management process. It starts by demonstrating to the client how much it should really cost to do the job properly but still gives them the option to clean to a price whilst demonstrating the corresponding impact on standards. At the same time we encourage the contractor to be transparent about the pricing structure so it can prove how efficient it really is.

The system is already being used to procure high profile multi-million pound contracts with great success. We are able to expose those contractors that say one thing and do another and we are also able to justify adequate resources for genuinely efficient contractors to do a proper job.

You’ll notice a great deal of publicity about the system over the next few months and at the same time we’ll be officially launching our contractor rating system. We’re also about to publicise some very high profile backing that will give the whole industry a boost

Watch this space!!

Regards

Mike

Art

  • Posts: 3688
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2006, 09:29:38 pm »
Mike,

 The end user in most cases is only interested in a value for money service ( as cheap as possible), cleaning is generally bottom of there list of priorites.
There's dozens of cleaning companies waiting to step in and clients are well aware of that. Doing presentations isn't going to change that.

In a previous job as a buyer  it was common practice for me to play one supplier of against another, rightly or wrongly if your in the services industry that's how your treated.

Sorry to be negative but that's the way i see it.

Having said that i truely hope you have developed a system that'll change things.

Arthur

ColinD

  • Posts: 69
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2006, 10:07:41 pm »
Arhur,

Possibly, but the essence of the problem is to eradicate the unethical contractor and at the same time educacte the client and the industry as a whole. A standard structure must be iimplemented, or it will be imposed upon us!

It's sad, I think, that here we are, and from what I am reading, and have been reading into over the last fews hours is that we "older" members of the industry understand the slippery slope that we are sliding down.

With the influx of young thrusters, no bad thing, we have to ensure that all of us set a criteria that the whole industry subscribes to!

Cost cutting to "get the contract", does nobody any good. Least of all our staff and in the long run, the client. As Rob said in his posting, the rotation of contracts is so high it' mitigates against consistency. We don't just have a semi-fluid industry, it's damn near liquid!

Rob, if what you are proposing, and I wait with bated breath, does not include the BIG BOYS, then it is upto the really ethical, committed, professional contractor to climb on board and demonstrate that there is more to the most important industry in the country than meets the eye.

I know the above paragraph sounds egotistical. It is.  A few years ago I ran a series of V large retails cleaning contracts. No names, no pat drill, but they were big. My Regional budget was 7m p.a.

I had a severe problem with client staff attitudes to my staff, a real case of us and them. The them being my people. I insisted upon a departmental managers meeting with the GM of a particular store. Then I posed the question to the managers.

"Would your staff get out of bed at 4.30 in the morning, come rain, snow, blizzards and the occasional hurricane, walk two or three miles to work, because there are no buses. Clean for three hours, for £4.50 per hour and then go home."

After a few mumbles the managers said, "they doubted it.
Which meant, no.

So I asked. If your store was not cleaned, and I meant really cleaned, front of house and back, daily, would you or your staff be prepared to do it daily. No mumbles, just an emphatic NO.

So, my cleaners allow you to open the doors every day. My staff, the team that you deride, castigate and belittle, because ther are cleaners, allow you to work. They provide the clean environment that enables this store to open every day to customers. Don't you think they deserve a little more respect than they have been receiving. A little thought about the pallets and boxes and the detritus that your staff leave abandoned on the floor for my staff to clean up or work around.

Silence pervaded the room.  And no before you ask, I was not asked to leave the premises, and I did not get the sack.

What I did get was a lot more co-operation for the cleaning team and a change in attitude from the store management and staff. It's called standing up for our staff, our companies and our industry. The effect on my staff was a greater realisation of their importance in the greater scheme of things. Nothing, but nothing would happen in this country without our industry, and the sooner the powers that be, and our clients, and the man in the street, who walks into a clean Tescos, Sainsburys, ASDA, Moririson, realises it, the better we, as and industry, will be. It's called eduaction, again.

Yet another diatribe, lefts hope we are not preaching to the converted.

Good night, and may your god go with you! Mine is waiting downstairs in a tumbler and it's called Glen Morange. Sod the carrot and grape juice tonight.

Nils illegitimi carborundum

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2006, 10:16:28 pm »
Re: THE I - CLEAN SYSTEM

Yes, Mike I do believe that your system or something similair is part of the answer, Bics also tried a similair sort of thing a few years ago.

However, the thing has to be industry wide, dont blame you for making a profit out of this, but until a level playing field is established, we will not make much progress. if however you could get the system to be part of legislation, now that would be another thing!

Great point ColinD, which is why in all our contracts we get our clients to sign a co-operation clause!

Whenever a prospect refuses to sign, which happens less often than you may think, we walk away.

Regards,

Rob

Art, as a buyer, you mentioned the fact that you played one supplier off against the other, that, as we all know is standard practice, but whatever product or service you were purchasing, did it not have to meet certain standards?

The difference, within our industry is, that 95% of buyers, have no real idea of what they are buying!

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

Fox

  • Posts: 824
Re: Age Discrimination
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2006, 07:45:36 am »
Hi All

Very interesting post.  I must agree with the comments about how low people see the cleaning industry.  I am amazed at the amount of calls I get saying can you quote for our cleaning we need someone to start next week!  It is usualy the last service purchased when a company forms or moves premises.  I can't believe some of the reactions when I say I need a months lead time to do risk assessments, staff the site, set up etc! 

As an employer I worry about what legislation will be brought in next, I am very up to date on employment laws and find it a minefield - you can't even discipline without giving notice that you are going to!  As for age discrimination - employers are focusing on the high end of the age table and worrying about abolishing their retirement age in contracts, personally I would prefer 100 OAPs to 1 school leaver!  The youth of today have no idea of work ethics, they are taught no discipline and anything that takes physical effort is a no no!  (Personal opinion only, there are young people willing it's just how I feel about the majority, and I'm only in my mid 30's!).

It's not just the client that need educating but the contractors also, it doesn't matter if a client pays £8.50 per hour or £28.50 contractors tend to stick in the first person who comes for a job who can walk and talk!  Employment is difficult, most of the time contractors are looking for people who will work only 2 or 3 hours per day for a low wage with minimum holiday allowance and no benefits, of course we are likely to be the bottom of the pile.  Turnover of staff is high in the cleaning industry and if contractors trained each and every employee they would forever be losing money.  Personally I pay fairly good rates and always have a 'supervisor' on site whether it be a 3 person or 10 person site, the supervisor is trained and when a new cleaner comes onto site it is the supervisors job to train them.  But I have to be totally honest and say that at times in the past I have used a 'cardboard cut out' (someone inexperienced and basically useless) when we have been severly understaffed and all the client wants to see is the right number of staff on site whether the work is done or not!

So what's the answer?  How long is a piece of string?  Legislation is changing all of the time and virtualy each month a new law in being enforced upon employers.  We are turning into a 'compo' country where an employer is sued for anything.  As an industry we need to keep one step ahead of the government and have practices in place, ensuring we are implementing them, this way they will already be in our pricing structures when quoting so when we are forced to change it won't send us under.  But again it brings up the question of would the client pay for that? 

I used to have ISO9001 (which I know has now changed to ISO1402 or something!)  Maybe something like this being compulsary is the way forward.

Fox