[JohnL]

I know this chestnut has been aired before but what about Painters & Decorators - nothing in the regs yet that MAKE them change their working practices except to ensure they are vigilant and careful at all times. P & Ds are up ladders for hours at a time so I think their must be some rethinking of the regs going on.

JohnL

[Ian_Giles]

decorators are more hamstrung by the regs than we are!
Scafolding and towers for them.

scafolders are also hamstrung by health and safety too, they are not supposed to work in wet or frosty weather, according to a customer of mine who happens to be a scafolder.

Painters are not supposed to work off simple hop ups now either, it has to be a proper platform, with guard/handrails and kick boards all round...even for just a couple of feet off the ground!

Ditto sparky's and other building trades.

want to work off a step ladder? uh uh, fraid not, temporary work only apparently.

Want to be a glazier?

Well don't forget the scafold tower you will have to use to replace a first floor window.

A glazier thatwent to replace a single, small broken pane on a factory site was watched and then tailed all the way back to his yard by a H & S officer.

He was told that in future he must use a platform or scafolding, and that he must also use a suitable skip on site to dispopse of the hazardous waste (the broken pane) and that he would be prosecuted if he takes that waste off site as he did that day (and disposed of it in the skip he had at his yard)
This isn't hearsay either, was a few years ago at the Rank Xerox factory in the forest of dean (huge place) the job was for my fathers building company that built the place for over 30 years, and the glazier was working for my father.


We ain't the only ones to rant at the intrusion of H & S!!!

mind how you go,

Ian

[poleman]

Other industry should not be included within the debate WHY well for a start we are a industry in are own right and have are set of own rules of good practice, and us window cleaners are different in that the amount of times a ladder is used in a day to climb to a window (100s) and so a higher risk that’s why most in the industry don’t like this short duration saying for are industry

Andy  

[james cairns]

guys I think ladders will not be banned for a long time to come

however if you want to do commercial work then you might find companies not allowing you onsite with ladders, just to keep themselves in tic with the h@se
and the work would go to companies setup with wfp
on domestic does anyone care

just my thoughts

jinky

[JohnL]

Ian - I'm not going to get into a long debate with you and posting copies of the P & Ders HSE advice sheets to back up my comments, there is nothing new posted in the last 6 months re WAH about P & Ders being hamstrung by regs!

Other than covering all the safety factors ensuring ladders are set correctly etc etc there are no restrictions.

However if you are an employee the company responsible for safety will be more carefull and resolute about safety issues.

JohnL

[Ian_Giles]

John,
I was talking about the perception we all tend to have of of H & S.

I am also correct in all I have stated too, those are not extreme cases, you do have to have proper platforms to work off inside.
On one account that I was doing the initial clean on (an office) The electricians were moaning because a health and safety officer had threatened to close the site down if they did not use the proper platforms I described, as against working off their step ladders.

The problem with the reams and reams of regulations is that you can use them to highlight whatever point you wish to make...it's all there in black and white innit'?

As window cleaners we fall foul of muddled regulations, they haven't been clarified at all.

If they say a ladder should only be used as a last resort, then they should enforce it.
to my personal way of thinking thats easy and really cuts down on the grey areas too.

At the moment of course, where the window cleaner is concerned they cannot really enforce it, at least not for the individual trader working on domestic accounts.
different on commercial sites of course.

But the uptake of WFP will make that an easier decision for them to take in a few years time.
Two years ago this forum almost all about Traditional window cleaning, the take up of WFP has been huge.
Within ten years do you seriously think that window cleaning off ladders will be the norm?

The industry is undergoing a massive change due to this new tool, there will come a point when the virtual ban of ladders will no longer be unviable.
There will always be jobs when it will be impractical for them to be done in any other way other than off a ladder, but those are generally few and far between.

time I hit the sack!

Ian

[BIRMINGHAM]

www.ladders-blma.co.uk

[JohnL]

and that is one of the problems

governments and regulatory bodies just see an empty pit of money other people will have to shell out.

the only thing to shell out in the long term will be on the ever increasing unemployed because of stupid regs!

JohnL

[Sir Squeaky]

John,
But the uptake of WFP will make that an easier decision for them to take in a few years time.
Two years ago this forum almost all about Traditional window cleaning, the take up of WFP has been huge.
Within ten years do you seriously think that window cleaning off ladders will be the norm?

Yes, almost certainly.

The take-up of wfp by forum members has been big, as they've pushed each other into it, and people want to have what the others have.

Most window cleaners I've spoke to (not forum members) aren't interested in it.

Away from the forum members wfp is rare.
8 or 9 out of ten w/c'ers you see use a squeegee.

[craig jwc]

I can see that a lot of people here have a very limited H+S knowledge. Cost is a factor in H+S law, every job on the planet can be made safer if money wasn't an issue. Window Cleaners will always be able to argue that paying £5000+ for a WFP system to do Mrs Jones 3 window terraced house is unreasonable. So the 'risk' of doing it with a ladder is seen by the HSE as 'justifiable'. This will always be the case like it or not.

I'm not up on the Regs but i know it dosen't cost that much to set up a wfp.

My 1st set up cost me around £300.

I have added to it know and must have spent between £2000 - £2500.

So the initial set up isn't that costly.

To be honest i only went WFP not because of the REgs, but it is a safer method of working and my safety comes before anything. I won't and can't put a value in ££ on my life.

I can't see them banning ladders completely, but resticting there use YES.

I only use a ladder now maybe twice a month just to gain access onto a balcony, and i think this is where the use of ladders will go.

This is only my thoughts

Craig

[Ian_Giles]

Spot on Craig, totally agree with you.

Ian