[james cairns]

guys this is just a simple senario

typical window cleaner builds up his round of say 1200 customers all domestic , he has 2 guys to help him, they travel in the one van with ladders and buckets he is quite happy with the size of his round and does not advertise or want any more work,
they are all fast window cleaners doing about 40 a day each and have  an 8,30 start and finishing at 5pm basically flat out and working seperately, mostly consisting of 2 bed terraced and 3 bed semi, straight forward houses no danger apart from the odd wet decking in the winter, where the guys fit each other for this surface.

The guy goes with the hype in wfp and works out that each man needs 650lt each per day to do the same numbers.so he invests in 3 vans and 3 systems and 3 ro and tanks, etc  and also purchases a large hut to put the tanks into

he now has an upmarket image doing wfp but realises

that he has spent a lot of cash on new vans equipment insurance , extra petrol and running costs along with maintenance,
before his day stopped at 5pm when he loaded the ladders
now he need to get
water transfered to vans, batteries charged for the next day, check that all poles connectors etc are ok for the next day before he sits down, and the lads are not producng any more work than what they did traditional

do you think he made a wise decision

I leave this answer to the forum

jinky

[poleman]

WFP is like any business decision, we are no different to say the farming industry, with new equipment / machinery over the course of years

Our industry is going thought big changes in its 100 + years and we are all playing apart to this, what with WFP systems and new regulations

I have lost count the amount of local window cleaners to me are taking more pride in there business and now realy enjoy going to work this is down to WFP as we now stop and chat, this can only be a good thing ( As long as you don’t tell them your price lol )       

Window cleaning is becoming more business like, you can now tender for contracts with the bigger company as you meet the health & safety criteria that building owners are now looking for, and so you can compete with bigger or national cleaning companies

And with the harsh realties of running a business mistakes happen and business will go under, it happens but life goes on like it or not

The scenario you have given…yes he has made the wrong decision, 650lts per man! Max 500lts for a start, I would not by new vans (second hand ones) and would only by one and maybe two, I would have 2 working in one van and the 2nd van doing the small jobs and would make the staff clean and look after the poles and fill up from home over night and if things are not working, things like price increases, micro boro, review of working practices would only help the business be more profitable

Andy         

           

[Londoner]

Where did he get the mythical two good blokes to help him?

In your simple scenario they are reliable, honest, punctual etc etc. I would suggest that in real life that doesn't happen and part of the advantage of going over to WFP woud be to cut his dependance on his men.

Also, if he can get them to do 40 houses a day , work flat out straight through and ( presumably) pay them peanuts then he is a lucky man indeed.

In my experience this is cloud cuckoo land. What happens when they decide they are going to set up on their own and quit? Where does he find another two blokes as good?

And in the mean time, since he can't do them all on his own, most of his round falls into arrears. Guess who goes knocking on their doors?

[james cairns]

the 2 guys could be 2 sons or 2 brothers or 2 relatives and be quite happy to stay with him

if you put 2 men in the one vehicle would this not increase the vehicle size resulting increase in fuel cost maybe and then the 2 guys would need to do 80 houses wfp together is that posible

as i said this is only a senario but thanks for input nice replys giuys

jinky

[Trevor Knight]

guys this is just a simple senario

typical window cleaner builds up his round of say 1200 customers all domestic , he has 2 guys to help him, they travel in the one van with ladders and buckets he is quite happy with the size of his round and does not advertise or want any more work,
they are all fast window cleaners doing about 40 a day each and have  an 8,30 start and finishing at 5pm basically flat out and working seperately, mostly consisting of 2 bed terraced and 3 bed semi, straight forward houses no danger apart from the odd wet decking in the winter, where the guys fit each other for this surface.

The guy goes with the hype in wfp and works out that each man needs 650lt each per day to do the same numbers.so he invests in 3 vans and 3 systems and 3 ro and tanks, etc  and also purchases a large hut to put the tanks into

he now has an upmarket image doing wfp but realises

that he has spent a lot of cash on new vans equipment insurance , extra petrol and running costs along with maintenance,
before his day stopped at 5pm when he loaded the ladders
now he need to get
water transfered to vans, batteries charged for the next day, check that all poles connectors etc are ok for the next day before he sits down, and the lads are not producng any more work than what they did traditional

do you think he made a wise decision

I leave this answer to the forum

jinky

Hi Jinky,

I appreciate what you trying to say but I think your scenario is a bit muddled.

You say each man does 40 houses each per day, yet they travel together in the same van? If they can travel together to start with then they can travel together with WFP. So you don't need a van each?

They clean 40 houses per day EACH? Is this a real achievable expectation. I have vehicles with 2 guys in and I would expect the two of them to clean that, not on their own, I think that is a lot to ask, maybe I am wrong?

650litres per man? Says who, my vehicles have 650 litre tanks that supply all day for two guy's ?

3 RO units, why? I would suggest a high output RO unit into holding tanks then submersible pump into the vehicle tanks. You would need 1000 litres per day (if you had two vehicles) so a 300GPD RO unit is fine.

Transfering water with a 70litre per minute Sub pump into a 650 litre tank takes takes 10 minutes, there is no need to check your fittings as you have been using them all day (would you check your ladders and squeegees every night?)

I hope this answers your posting as honestly as I can.

Doesn't this WFP situation get everyone thinking, nobody has said that anyone MUST use this, well apart from some local authorities and councils, but hey, its personal choice.

Best wishes,

Trev

[pylofm]

Come on it's horses for courses....

I have chosen the WFP route as a newbie (did do trad about 18 years ago)...because of various reasons..one being my not liking ladders too much...

There are very valid arguments for both trad and wfp, if the pre-squeegee guys could have had input we would have another very valid set of points.

Change occurs...stat...I used to work in computers for more time than I care to mention....many of the same arguments were presented as here.  At the time both very valid and you could argue the same points today..

The truth is that we are window cleaners and this furom looks like it is going to turn into complete dog poo with a bunch of school yard gangs swapping insults, slurs and nonsense. Perhaps we could have an seperate area where all the window cleaners world rights could be thrashed out from here to eternity?

I for one am very gratful for the kind words and advice given to me here, these have enabled me to make a start into the world of window cleaning...Thanks

But you have to admit (or not) some of you guys make yourself appear like complete prats

Dave.

[Trevor Knight]

Hi Dave,

Not sure what your posting is relating to?

The truth is that we are window cleaners and this furom looks like it is going to turn into complete dog poo with a bunch of school yard gangs swapping insults, slurs and nonsense. Perhaps we could have an seperate area where all the window cleaners world rights could be thrashed out from here to eternity?

I for one am very gratful for the kind words and advice given to me here, these have enabled me to make a start into the world of window cleaning...Thanks

But you have to admit (or not) some of you guys make yourself appear like complete prats

Dave.

The posting was a genuine question that as far as I can see has had genuine replies, none of which I read as offensive, insulting or nonsense?

Perhaps I have missed this?

I know I for one have answered your previous posting so i am glad I have been of assisstance even though I may be a prat as you so kindly put it?

Best wishes,

Trev

[pylofm]

Hi Trev...I stand by my comments.....having only been on this forum for a short time...it seems to have turned into a defensive monster...Sorry but hey thats how I see it...

Cheers
Dave.

ps the posting is related to the forum in general.

[williamx]

they are all fast window cleaners doing about 40 a day each and have  an 8,30 start and finishing at 5pm basically flat out and working separately, mostly consisting of 2 bed terraced and 3 bed semi, straight forward houses no danger apart from the odd wet decking in the winter, where the guys fit each other for this surface.

jinky

Jinky

Your say that you cleaners work safely but at 40 houses each per day then I think that at times that safety could go horribly wrong.

How much do you valve their safety and lives? the total cost to set up a wfp system to accommodate them would not cost a lot.

[james cairns]

guys this is based on a simple senario of a typical window cleaner and not based on myself


jeff you say why the extra vehicles but if 3 men are doing 120 houses a day how much water would they need

the topic was based on 2 bed semi 3 bed semi 2 bed terraced and 3 bed terraced
all moderm estates, is 40 too much somehow I think this is an average for a quality window cleaner you did traditional for years did your lads not batter the numbers in this type of work or maybe ask terry burrows if these numbers are fair or sweeky who is fast at traditional

williamx you question the fact of safety -is safety not related to attitude and speed related to efficency

this is not a dig at wfp it is just a scenario based on a guy should he go wfp and have the extra costs or stick at what he knows best

I believe that wfp is an excellent tool used in the right conditions, but has this not proved that it can be money spent foolishly if you work does not need it.

The issue of safety ladder work comes up quite regular - now if these are straight forward houses with no danger does he really need an ulternative

remember this a domestic round and problems come with domestic that you do not get with commercials like narrow lanes blocked with wheeley bins  washing lines, bushes, parked cars under windows etc etc

I am not sticking up for traditional but keeping an open mind to the different types of window cleaning, maybe if some people had the same attitude towards rodger  they would understand where he is coming from and understand that in some situations traditional window cleaning can out perform
wfp.and also be run at a small cost to the owner.

I thank you for your replys and please remember it is just a light debate between wfp and  traditional  and the pros and cons of investing or not investing.


jinky

[Sir Squeaky]

I get a mention without even posting sometimes.....

[Paul Coleman]

guys this is just a simple senario

typical window cleaner builds up his round of say 1200 customers all domestic , he has 2 guys to help him, they travel in the one van with ladders and buckets he is quite happy with the size of his round and does not advertise or want any more work,
they are all fast window cleaners doing about 40 a day each and have  an 8,30 start and finishing at 5pm basically flat out and working seperately, mostly consisting of 2 bed terraced and 3 bed semi, straight forward houses no danger apart from the odd wet decking in the winter, where the guys fit each other for this surface.

The guy goes with the hype in wfp and works out that each man needs 650lt each per day to do the same numbers.so he invests in 3 vans and 3 systems and 3 ro and tanks, etc  and also purchases a large hut to put the tanks into

he now has an upmarket image doing wfp but realises

that he has spent a lot of cash on new vans equipment insurance , extra petrol and running costs along with maintenance,
before his day stopped at 5pm when he loaded the ladders
now he need to get
water transfered to vans, batteries charged for the next day, check that all poles connectors etc are ok for the next day before he sits down, and the lads are not producng any more work than what they did traditional

do you think he made a wise decision

I leave this answer to the forum

jinky

If it is the way you stated it then obviously the decision was flawed.  However, if you were to state that one of the employees falls off a ladder, dies, and the employer gets charged with manslaughter then clearly the reduced profit of WFP is a better option.  In reality though, the guys will eventually produce more once they get used to WFP provided that the work isn't full of flat roofs and poor access.  As for the extra tasks out of hours that you mention, they don't take long anyway.  It can take just a few minutes to fill a van tank if you have a decent submersible pump in your static tank.  Checking/changing connectors is hardly time consuming and can be done while the tanks are filling anyway.  Batteries need not be charged if a split charge relay system is used.  A trolley battery may need charging once a week at most if a van mount is used most of the time.
Having said all that, on the type of work tyou mention and if the trad cleaners are very fast, there probably would be a reduced profit level.  The trick is to get the type of work that can bring the profit margin back up to offset the increased costs and to unload (sell?) the less profitable part of the domestic round.
Just my opinion of course and I haven't yet done all those things I've listed.

[Fast 1 *]

I get a mention without even posting sometimes.....

you must be famous

[james cairns]

shiner really good reply and well justified the part of someone falling from a ladder, see it is these replys that gets traditional window cleaners thinking is there something in this wfp

great response mate

jinky

[abacus]

Hi jinky
I thought that with the new regs you were not supposed to put your ladder on grass directly
so if you were to use a safety plate such as a rojac this would also alter the speed as setting and picking it up would take more time.Really does this not all hinge on the awaited explanation on what the h&s exc say is really meant in the new regs if they  mean the safest means must always be used or the safest means you own must be useD

I thought at one time it was all cut and dryed however they seem to have made the regs as clear as mud
I like the pole system for many reasons but over the time I have had it I would say that I was very defenately misled as to its running costs and it has cost me dearly now it is paying for itself but still it is easy to let the cost run away with you  of course jinky if they ban ladders altogether he will have no choice anyway.

pay your money and take you choice but whatever the general public by and large really dont seem to care about our safety, if does a better job or they feel that they are getting a better deal well now thats more likely to interest them
regards grant

[james cairns]

grant that is one honest reply

but do you think they will chase  up health and safety in domestic

the scots are licenced and nobody bothers to check them

I think the ban on ladders would be good for the industry but it has to be across the board, and too many services use ladders to ban them

you say you cannot put ladders on grass without a board is this fact have not read the rules recently, this would slow window cleaner down if done traditionally its all theory and food for thought thats why I said a light debate

jinky

[thewindowcleaner1]

I'm having problems with the 40 houses per man per day, I have myself and a lad on a van and we are "cream crackerd" after about 30-35 and thats with WFP.

But as you say if they can do 40 per man per day trad then I would expect them to do at least another 10 per man per day with WFP, increasing your turnover by 25% thus covering the cost of refitting within a short time and the aditional running cost met with ease plus apart from the safety your workers would be a happier work force and of course you could tender for those lucritive contracts just out side your scope before then employe more staff doing 50 houses a day
and spend your weekends counting the proffits.

Alan

[Paul Coleman]

grant that is one honest reply

but do you think they will chase  up health and safety in domestic

the scots are licenced and nobody bothers to check them

I think the ban on ladders would be good for the industry but it has to be across the board, and too many services use ladders to ban them

you say you cannot put ladders on grass without a board is this fact have not read the rules recently, this would slow window cleaner down if done traditionally its all theory and food for thought thats why I said a light debate

jinky

I feel that having a board or a stopper under the ladder while on grass would hinder safety much of the time.  The little depressions made by the ladder will hold the ladder far better than any board or stopper IMO.  Also, in certain conditions, the board could slide across the grass.  The trick is to put your weight onto the bottom rung before climbing the ladder - even jumping on it if necessary.  You can then see if the amount the ladder sinks will take the top of it below the sill (using ladder mitts on the top of the ladder of course).  Allow a bit of leeway for the ladder sinking a bit once you start climbing.  Of course, a ladder fitted with feet will reduce the sinking.  OK so WFP is safer but what I've written about ladder usage is what has felt right for me.  I only seem to use ladders now when they are resting against a flat roof so accuracy is not so critical.

[jeff evans]

jeff you say why the extra vehicles but if 3 men are doing 120 houses a day how much water would they need

Jinky who is Jeff ? not seen any mention of a jeff up to this post on this therad.

[james cairns]

sorry jeff should have been trev - my mistake

jinky