[John Mart]

Gentlemen.

It would appear that feathers are ruffled and handbags have smeary makeup on them.

Chris Turner - had you made that post about me I would believe that you had criticised my wfp work; this is of course tantamount to you telling me I'm a bad driver; which is on a par with telling me I'm useless in bed.

I would further inform you that I am an appalling driver in the area of bumps and scrapes usually on customers fences, my own gates and infamously the post box I reversed into. My wife will tell you I am useless in bed but I disagree, I can lie for 8 hours snoring loudly.

Marc - I am a bit anal about my work but have learned to be a bit less anal from learning from others on this forum. I usually do the top frame but not always if it's 4 weekly and there is a vent.

But if I haven't done the top frame with a vent for 8 weeks or 12 weeks I will give it its own little scrub along with next few top frames of top windows in easy reach before going round the glass afterwards. Even then I know that once I have left and driven down the road - avoiding post boxes of course, a little dribble will seep out of no. 49's top vent and leave a line of "milk" stains.

Sills will get a single pass unless there is special need and I have also learned to not rinse - except I might tilt the brush upwards on the final scrub so the top edge is NOT in contact and water flows down as I go.

As far as ppm goes I'm far worse than you. I used to be anal about zero ppm and not letting my brush touch brickwork and now I happily clean at up to 10ppm - I haven't quite got the nerve to ditch resin altogether because my membrane produces at about 14ppm and I haven't "quite" got the nerve to ditch it completely.

So ... we all have different ways of working - Chris sleeps better (he's very good in bed obviously) when he takes a bit of extra time doing what he does. You're a very good driver when you drive your ppm down to zero and getting a businesslike profit from your work.

The rest of us on this forum are enjoying eating our popcorn and watching this thread - but learning loads - and from the responses the majority of us agree that customers should agree to our terms beforehand - even if they sack us afterwards for being crap.

By getting that commitment and charging more for the first clean we can cover for the fact that a few will lie to get the one off clean with the full intention of stopping us within a clean or two afterwards.

Ok. So for a £50 house you would agree it's fair to charge £160 odd for the first clean?

Marc started this thread out of disrespect for a customer, brazenly posting his absurd pricing, whilst I had first hand experience of why, to the contrary,  that the customer in some situations is right to want to try before they buy. Why should they pay a ridiculous price for wanting to do so?

Perhaps I shouldn't of named names, but it was just so flipping ironic that Marc himself was my evidence..

A minging first clean could easily take 3/4 times longer so I think on a large house with a bad feeling should be priced at 3/4 times.

[chris turner]

Gentlemen.

It would appear that feathers are ruffled and handbags have smeary makeup on them.

Chris Turner - had you made that post about me I would believe that you had criticised my wfp work; this is of course tantamount to you telling me I'm a bad driver; which is on a par with telling me I'm useless in bed.

I would further inform you that I am an appalling driver in the area of bumps and scrapes usually on customers fences, my own gates and infamously the post box I reversed into. My wife will tell you I am useless in bed but I disagree, I can lie for 8 hours snoring loudly.

Marc - I am a bit anal about my work but have learned to be a bit less anal from learning from others on this forum. I usually do the top frame but not always if it's 4 weekly and there is a vent.

But if I haven't done the top frame with a vent for 8 weeks or 12 weeks I will give it its own little scrub along with next few top frames of top windows in easy reach before going round the glass afterwards. Even then I know that once I have left and driven down the road - avoiding post boxes of course, a little dribble will seep out of no. 49's top vent and leave a line of "milk" stains.

Sills will get a single pass unless there is special need and I have also learned to not rinse - except I might tilt the brush upwards on the final scrub so the top edge is NOT in contact and water flows down as I go.

As far as ppm goes I'm far worse than you. I used to be anal about zero ppm and not letting my brush touch brickwork and now I happily clean at up to 10ppm - I haven't quite got the nerve to ditch resin altogether because my membrane produces at about 14ppm and I haven't "quite" got the nerve to ditch it completely.

So ... we all have different ways of working - Chris sleeps better (he's very good in bed obviously) when he takes a bit of extra time doing what he does. You're a very good driver when you drive your ppm down to zero and getting a businesslike profit from your work.

The rest of us on this forum are enjoying eating our popcorn and watching this thread - but learning loads - and from the responses the majority of us agree that customers should agree to our terms beforehand - even if they sack us afterwards for being crap.

By getting that commitment and charging more for the first clean we can cover for the fact that a few will lie to get the one off clean with the full intention of stopping us within a clean or two afterwards.

Ok. So for a £50 house you would agree it's fair to charge £160 odd for the first clean?

Marc started this thread out of disrespect for a customer, brazenly posting his absurd pricing, whilst I had first hand experience of why, to the contrary,  that the customer in some situations is right to want to try before they buy. Why should they pay a ridiculous price for wanting to do so?

Perhaps I shouldn't of named names, but it was just so flipping ironic that Marc himself was my evidence..

A minging first clean could easily take 3/4 times longer so I think on a large house with a bad feeling should be priced at 3/4 times.

Nope it shouldn't take that long. Maybe twice as long but 3/4 times is overly excessive and is just a number you are using to justify Marcs huge price discrepancy.
You work in a similar fashion to Marc which is why you are desperately coming to his defence 8 weekly.

Perhaps we should start a "cowboy window cleaner" name and shame thread...

[nathankaye]

Pricing is always a sore subject on here, regardless of the methods being used because clean windows are cleaned windows whichever way you want to slice it.
It always makes me laugh to myself when I speak to other shiner who try and justify why their prices are lower than others or when ones under cut just to get the job, as ultimately they are hurting themself.   If Marc charges £50 whereas others are much lower and take longer then these ones would do well to question themself rather than others.  Why are they working for maybe £10 less per clean? Just because in their head they can't justify it, yet evidence points contrary to it and yet they still insist or justify that their way is better.
As spock would say "it's highly illogical"

[chris turner]

Listen Guys. I cant be bothered anymore.

If Chris thinks that im crap at what I do; well he's entitled to his opinion. I have been seeking legal advice on this matter; and surprisingly i have options going forward; as what he has done is well below the belt. Im sorry but you dont go onto a public forum and publicly state false claims of bad workmanship on the internet about anyone without the repercussions.

Why everyone thinks that i dont wash the frames and sills; and do an epicly bad job even though they haven't met me, met customers or realisticly seen me working is beyond me. If i was that terrible at my job then the countless recommendations  i get, and my ever growing customer list which is approaching 500 simply wouldnt happen.

I take all criticism on board; im happy to discuss opinions on methods; as everyone has a different approach to business, and diferent priorities.

But what you have done Chris is publicly smear my reputation by openly accusing me of my so called "poor standard" of work and publish that on the internet which can be indexed on search engines.

I wholly refute this; and i intend to defend myself to the maximum capacity going forward. You Chris have just made a very big mistake.

The original post was not one of disrespect to any customer of mine. It was simply a lighthearted thread about customers expectations and the scenarios we face that i'd hoped; all being fellow window cleaners (removing the fellow definition for you Chris) could connect with.

This is the last you will hear from me on this subject. Its not the last you will hear from me Chris; not by a long margin.

Oh get over yourself Marc.

[chris turner]

Listen Guys. I cant be bothered anymore.

If Chris thinks that im crap at what I do; well he's entitled to his opinion. I have been seeking legal advice on this matter; and surprisingly i have options going forward; as what he has done is well below the belt. Im sorry but you dont go onto a public forum and publicly state false claims of bad workmanship on the internet about anyone without the repercussions.

Why everyone thinks that i dont wash the frames and sills; and do an epicly bad job even though they haven't met me, met customers or realisticly seen me working is beyond me. If i was that terrible at my job then the countless recommendations  i get, and my ever growing customer list which is approaching 500 simply wouldnt happen.

I take all criticism on board; im happy to discuss opinions on methods; as everyone has a different approach to business, and diferent priorities.

But what you have done Chris is publicly smear my reputation by openly accusing me of my so called "poor standard" of work and publish that on the internet which can be indexed on search engines.

I wholly refute this; and i intend to defend myself to the maximum capacity going forward. You Chris have just made a very big mistake.

The original post was not one of disrespect to any customer of mine. It was simply a lighthearted thread about customers expectations and the scenarios we face that i'd hoped; all being fellow window cleaners (removing the fellow definition for you Chris) could connect with.

This is the last you will hear from me on this subject. Its not the last you will hear from me Chris; not by a long margin.

And FYI, no I don't connect with ripping customers off.
Perhaps you should treat people more fairly if you wish to be treated that way yourself.

[chris turner]

Oh and good luck with your legal proceedings.
You are a limited company are you not?
Not once have i named and shamed your business as an entity. I have only spoken against you as an individual, no different to some tit for tat on a social media site.
Don't think I have broken any of your "celebrity" infringement rights on this occasion.
Get real bud.

[֍Winp®oClean֍]

You will often find that the "money" talkers generally feel inadequate themselves. I have seen them all on here over the years- with the passage of time they usually expose their reality in one way or another and you see that they are just the same as me and thee from a business point of view! I did at one time get wound up by it- as it often seems an attemp to make others feel inadequate but now I actually lean towards pity. You have to be rather unhappy with fundamental aspects of your life to act in this way.

Before anyone Sue's , deforms or liables me, this is a general observation and not aimed at anyone. 

[John Mart]

Gentlemen.

It would appear that feathers are ruffled and handbags have smeary makeup on them.

Chris Turner - had you made that post about me I would believe that you had criticised my wfp work; this is of course tantamount to you telling me I'm a bad driver; which is on a par with telling me I'm useless in bed.

I would further inform you that I am an appalling driver in the area of bumps and scrapes usually on customers fences, my own gates and infamously the post box I reversed into. My wife will tell you I am useless in bed but I disagree, I can lie for 8 hours snoring loudly.

Marc - I am a bit anal about my work but have learned to be a bit less anal from learning from others on this forum. I usually do the top frame but not always if it's 4 weekly and there is a vent.

But if I haven't done the top frame with a vent for 8 weeks or 12 weeks I will give it its own little scrub along with next few top frames of top windows in easy reach before going round the glass afterwards. Even then I know that once I have left and driven down the road - avoiding post boxes of course, a little dribble will seep out of no. 49's top vent and leave a line of "milk" stains.

Sills will get a single pass unless there is special need and I have also learned to not rinse - except I might tilt the brush upwards on the final scrub so the top edge is NOT in contact and water flows down as I go.

As far as ppm goes I'm far worse than you. I used to be anal about zero ppm and not letting my brush touch brickwork and now I happily clean at up to 10ppm - I haven't quite got the nerve to ditch resin altogether because my membrane produces at about 14ppm and I haven't "quite" got the nerve to ditch it completely.

So ... we all have different ways of working - Chris sleeps better (he's very good in bed obviously) when he takes a bit of extra time doing what he does. You're a very good driver when you drive your ppm down to zero and getting a businesslike profit from your work.

The rest of us on this forum are enjoying eating our popcorn and watching this thread - but learning loads - and from the responses the majority of us agree that customers should agree to our terms beforehand - even if they sack us afterwards for being crap.

By getting that commitment and charging more for the first clean we can cover for the fact that a few will lie to get the one off clean with the full intention of stopping us within a clean or two afterwards.

Ok. So for a £50 house you would agree it's fair to charge £160 odd for the first clean?

Marc started this thread out of disrespect for a customer, brazenly posting his absurd pricing, whilst I had first hand experience of why, to the contrary,  that the customer in some situations is right to want to try before they buy. Why should they pay a ridiculous price for wanting to do so?

Perhaps I shouldn't of named names, but it was just so flipping ironic that Marc himself was my evidence..

A minging first clean could easily take 3/4 times longer so I think on a large house with a bad feeling should be priced at 3/4 times.

Nope it shouldn't take that long. Maybe twice as long but 3/4 times is overly excessive and is just a number you are using to justify Marcs huge price discrepancy.
You work in a similar fashion to Marc which is why you are desperately coming to his defence 8 weekly.

Perhaps we should start a "cowboy window cleaner" name and shame thread...

If you can do a real minger in only twice as long you either don't do a thorough job or you are overcleaning on regulars.

[Walter Mitty]

Hell hath no fury ...
My take.  It can easily take three times longer to clean a minging house - though often doesn't.  First pass can be loads of scrubbing of green frames/glass etc. which can take ages in itself.  Second pass glass only to tidy up any delayed run marks.
Chris is wrong for posting public crit of another shiner's work.
Threatening legal action is plain daft.
Any decent judge would tell you both to grow a pair.
A pity really because you both seem decent guys apart from this thread.

[chris turner]

Hell hath no fury ...
My take.  It can easily take three times longer to clean a minging house - though often doesn't.  First pass can be loads of scrubbing of green frames/glass etc. which can take ages in itself.  Second pass glass only to tidy up any delayed run marks.
Chris is wrong for posting public crit of another shiner's work.
Threatening legal action is plain daft.
Any decent judge would tell you both to grow a pair.
A pity really because you both seem decent guys apart from this thread.

Soak each window in heavy duty cleaner, clean and rinse. Dirt melts away. Takes extra time to soak each window and a bit of extra rinsing but certainly not 3 or 4 times longer.

[AuRavelling79]

Well, that escalated quickly ...

 

[John Mart]

Hell hath no fury ...
My take.  It can easily take three times longer to clean a minging house - though often doesn't.  First pass can be loads of scrubbing of green frames/glass etc. which can take ages in itself.  Second pass glass only to tidy up any delayed run marks.
Chris is wrong for posting public crit of another shiner's work.
Threatening legal action is plain daft.
Any decent judge would tell you both to grow a pair.
A pity really because you both seem decent guys apart from this thread.

Soak each window in heavy duty cleaner, clean and rinse. Dirt melts away. Takes extra time to soak each window and a bit of extra rinsing but certainly not 3 or 4 times longer.

Just doing the soaking would double the time. To cover every inch of a window with a degreaser would take as long as it would to clean it on a maintenance clean. Add to that getting the backpack out. Then if you managed to get every window clean clean with maintenance level two passes you're already at twice the time. Don't get me wrong, I don't charge double on all first cleans but I would on a minger if it was me that turned up. I'd charge 3x for a one off.

[Frankybadboy]

Well Chris - I'm simply trying to get all parties to shake hands and move on so that we continue with a peaceful helpful section of the forum.


But I haven't got a defined business plan like Marc has and he may well be able to spend his time more wisely.

shut up you silly old fool,


lets she them have a fight and best man wins,get a grip Gold your going all soft in your retirement years 

[Dry Clean]

Well, that escalated quickly ...

 

Couldn't agree more, one minute its just a bit of handbag slapping the next Nathan has posted a video, I'm still in shock. lol.

[Cookie]

Well, that escalated quickly ...

 

Couldn't agree more, one minute its just a bit of handbag slapping the next Nathan has posted a video, I'm still in shock. lol.

Where's Nathan's video? I think I missed it   

[G Griffin]

You will often find that the "money" talkers generally feel inadequate themselves. I have seen them all on here over the years- with the passage of time they usually expose their reality in one way or another and you see that they are just the same as me and thee from a business point of view! I did at one time get wound up by it- as it often seems an attemp to make others feel inadequate but now I actually lean towards pity. You have to be rather unhappy with fundamental aspects of your life to act in this way.

Before anyone Sue's , deforms or liables me, this is a general observation and not aimed at anyone. 

That's a fair summary.
Marc was massaging his own ego and Chris bruised it a little. It's human nature; we like to knock down folk that big themselves up.
Us old school window cleaners- not businessmen- got the mick taken out of us for taking too long on a window; not being too quick.
Let it go, boys.
 
 
 

[Dry Clean]

Well, that escalated quickly ...

 

Couldn't agree more, one minute its just a bit of handbag slapping the next Nathan has posted a video, I'm still in shock. lol.

Where's Nathan's video? I think I missed it   

On your own head be it, second post on page 5,

[John Mart]

You will often find that the "money" talkers generally feel inadequate themselves. I have seen them all on here over the years- with the passage of time they usually expose their reality in one way or another and you see that they are just the same as me and thee from a business point of view! I did at one time get wound up by it- as it often seems an attemp to make others feel inadequate but now I actually lean towards pity. You have to be rather unhappy with fundamental aspects of your life to act in this way.

Before anyone Sue's , deforms or liables me, this is a general observation and not aimed at anyone. 

That's a fair summary.
Marc was massaging his own ego and Chris bruised it a little. It's human nature; we like to knock down folk that big themselves up.
Us old school window cleaners- not businessmen- got the mick taken out of us for taking too long on a window; not being too quick.
Let it go, boys.

I think Marc perfectly demonstrates the feeling of inferiority at being a windowcleaner. He’s quite right in my opinion to charge well on that sort first clean on a minger like that without commitment. The “customer “ though perfectly demonstrated the belief that window cleaners are desperate and grateful for a crumb. A perfect storm. 

[Slacky]

But there’s plenty of dunderhead shiners out there that would succumb to a custards attempts to better the price offered. It’s human nature.

You see it all the time on here - shiners earning the same as GP’s or surgeons but seeking the cheapest rate for 5 litres of Virosol.

[Don Kee]

Never thought I’d say this but I’m off to the ‘off topic’ side of the forum...
There’s not as many nutters over there!!!

(Disclaimer - that’s not a dig at any squirrels or elephants or any animal or people or just anyone specific that may associate themselves with nuts, just incase anyone decides they have grounds for a lawsuit; I think you’re all equally as mental)