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dazmond

  • Posts: 23617
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2018, 01:37:05 pm »
you could buy a pole,barrels,backpack and a DI vessel and resin for under £500......
price higher/work harder!

Shrek

  • Posts: 3931
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2018, 01:43:15 pm »
some window cleaners  are just not very good regardless of method used.i clean some offices on a busy main road every 6 weeks and they often still look pretty clean after 6 weeks.......

IMO £40 sounds expensive...so he s charging you £10 a window? ::)roll

No he is charging £40 for 12 windows which he does in about 20 minutes.  But he then walks 2 minutes into the open shopping pedestrian precinct and does about 5 or 6 shops in there as well.  But he has been and gone in less than an hour.  I am guessing but he probably gets a £100 in under an hour

Is he charging around £13.33 for each 3 properties or is it you and 3 neighbours at £10 each?

Shrek

  • Posts: 3931
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2018, 01:44:37 pm »
you could buy a pole,barrels,backpack and a DI vessel and resin for under £500......

If he’s being charged £10 a month from the windy , then he’ll get his money back in 4 years  ;D

dazmond

  • Posts: 23617
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2018, 01:48:45 pm »
you could buy a pole,barrels,backpack and a DI vessel and resin for under £500......

If he’s being charged £10 a month from the windy , then he’ll get his money back in 4 years  ;D

i thought id let him figure that one out!......personally i wouldnt bother if i were him...... ;D
price higher/work harder!

KS Cleaning

  • Posts: 3906
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2018, 02:53:58 pm »
Perhaps he is scrimping on water to stop the water dripping onto the shop windows below? which in turn can lead to poor results.

Kev Martin

  • Posts: 6954
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2018, 05:33:51 pm »
some window cleaners  are just not very good regardless of method used.i clean some offices on a busy main road every 6 weeks and they often still look pretty clean after 6 weeks.......

IMO £40 sounds expensive...so he s charging you £10 a window? ::)roll

No he is charging £40 for 12 windows which he does in about 20 minutes.  But he then walks 2 minutes into the open shopping pedestrian precinct and does about 5 or 6 shops in there as well.  But he has been and gone in less than an hour.  I am guessing but he probably gets a £100 in under an hour

Is he charging around £13.33 for each 3 properties or is it you and 3 neighbours at £10 each?

He does the 3 flats, 12 Windows all in a line, 4 Windows each flat for £40, we take it in turn to pay so it is £160 per year per flat
"Natural Stone Restoration Specialists" Tel: 0121 773 9129
www.tilinglogistics.co.uk | www.marblelife.co.uk  http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Tiling-Logistics

Kev Martin

  • Posts: 6954
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2018, 05:40:15 pm »
Might be worth telling us a bit more about what the issues are with the windows to help us understand the problem.

As for the frames. If they are old and and town centre based the pvc could be discoloured and grubby.  Or maybe you might have damaged seals causing particles to get in between the glazing.  As you said new windows are being installed so I suspect they must be old and worn anyway.

We are having new windows installed because we want a through draft and more ventilation.  The way the old windows were designed meant we couldn’t get any air running through the flat.  The new windows are tilt and turn.  All this led to me asking the question because the frames from the high street side are black and filthy dirty.  This is either down to it being on the high street or his crappy cleaning.  I suspect from all your replies he is scrimping on water.  I just don’t want the same to happen to the new windows hence my question about buying my own kit.  It is not about the money, it is about the standard of cleaning achieved.  I will happily pay double or even treble to get the best job.
"Natural Stone Restoration Specialists" Tel: 0121 773 9129
www.tilinglogistics.co.uk | www.marblelife.co.uk  http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Tiling-Logistics

Kev Martin

  • Posts: 6954
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2018, 05:40:52 pm »
Perhaps he is scrimping on water to stop the water dripping onto the shop windows below? which in turn can lead to poor results.

Yes this makes sense
"Natural Stone Restoration Specialists" Tel: 0121 773 9129
www.tilinglogistics.co.uk | www.marblelife.co.uk  http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Tiling-Logistics

John Mart

Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2018, 05:52:32 pm »
some window cleaners  are just not very good regardless of method used.i clean some offices on a busy main road every 6 weeks and they often still look pretty clean after 6 weeks.......

IMO £40 sounds expensive...so he s charging you £10 a window? ::)roll

No he is charging £40 for 12 windows which he does in about 20 minutes.  But he then walks 2 minutes into the open shopping pedestrian precinct and does about 5 or 6 shops in there as well.  But he has been and gone in less than an hour.  I am guessing but he probably gets a £100 in under an hour

Is he charging around £13.33 for each 3 properties or is it you and 3 neighbours at £10 each?

He does the 3 flats, 12 Windows all in a line, 4 Windows each flat for £40, we take it in turn to pay so it is £160 per year per flat
Don’t know where you are but I charge £15 for a flat. If they had to be done on a High Street though I’d either charge more per flat or more likely not do it. Especially if parking was not possible. If you want perfect windows you’d be advised to move.  ;D

Kev Martin

  • Posts: 6954
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2018, 06:19:27 pm »
some window cleaners  are just not very good regardless of method used.i clean some offices on a busy main road every 6 weeks and they often still look pretty clean after 6 weeks.......

IMO £40 sounds expensive...so he s charging you £10 a window? ::)roll

No he is charging £40 for 12 windows which he does in about 20 minutes.  But he then walks 2 minutes into the open shopping pedestrian precinct and does about 5 or 6 shops in there as well.  But he has been and gone in less than an hour.  I am guessing but he probably gets a £100 in under an hour

Is he charging around £13.33 for each 3 properties or is it you and 3 neighbours at £10 each?

He does the 3 flats, 12 Windows all in a line, 4 Windows each flat for £40, we take it in turn to pay so it is £160 per year per flat
Don’t know where you are but I charge £15 for a flat. If they had to be done on a High Street though I’d either charge more per flat or more likely not do it. Especially if parking was not possible. If you want perfect windows you’d be advised to move.  ;D

You have that wrong It says in my Profile where I am!  I don’t however know where you are!  Parking is no problem! There is a car park 40 yds away which is Free of Charge.  I don’t want perfect windows just Clean Ones ;D
"Natural Stone Restoration Specialists" Tel: 0121 773 9129
www.tilinglogistics.co.uk | www.marblelife.co.uk  http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Tiling-Logistics

֍Winp®oClean֍

  • Posts: 1619
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2018, 07:10:34 pm »
You're not happy, sack him.  You'll soon find out whether he was any good or not when you compare him to whoever comes next. £40 for 12 windows sounds expensive but it all depends on the situation- maybe you could take a photo?
Comfortably Numb!

Spruce

  • Posts: 8377
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2018, 08:30:26 pm »
Its also a 'free' world where we have a choice. If your current window cleaner isn't doing a satisfactory job then you could look for one that will clean frames and do a better job.

Its my opinion that if the frames are left dirty then its very difficult to only clean the glass and do a good job. As with any trade, you get those who do the least possible for the most reward and then those who take pride in their work. Window cleaning is no different. In fact, we know a window cleaner who looks for customers who are happy with a 90% job. He says you will never do a perfect job. At most you can accomplish is 95% and that takes twice as long to achieve another 5% which is hardly noticeable. Its all about money to him, and window cleaning is a numbers game if that's what drives/motivates the window cleaner.

As has been posted earlier, a trolley user is trying to save water so this could also be an issue. But it could also be that his water isn't as pure as it could/should be.

Pricing is a very contentious issue.  If the window cleaner was doing a job to your satisfaction I doubt you would have posted your 'grievance' on here. I also doubt that you would have analysed his local to you route and calcuated his hourly rate.

I clean a 3 story Victorian house on the High Street which was converted to an accountant's offices many years back. It takes me  about 40 minutes to complete. I've done this place for nearly 10 years. When I quoted I allowed myself 45 minutes to do the job during normal business hours. But as the  High Street has become more busy its was taking me over twice as long. Recently a Wetherspoons has opened next door and foot traffic is horrendous, not to mention parking. So to do the job in reasonable time, I have to get there for 6/7am on a Sunday morning  and a little later in the winter. So does this mean that I should reduce my charge because I'm not taking so long? No.

Our customer has broken the actuator lever on one of her new velux windows. Velux will come out and the cost is £100 to have a look at it. He then charges £50 an hour or part thereof to fit the actuator which is held on with a few screws. The actuator cost £100.  Total cost £250 and did we mention that VAT needs to be added to that. Now I wouldn't hestitate to say that the overheads to employ that tradesman to do that job isn't anywhere near what my overheads are as a wfp window cleaner. ( I do appreciate that his costs are exaggerated and skewed due to the size of the corporation his works for.) A couple of years back I divided my total annual running costs (expenses) by the number of jobs I had done that year. I didn't include wages. Each job cost me £4 to just arrive at the door; water filtration, insurances, fuel, servicing, equipment etc. - no wages. I run on a shoe string and I don't have a new van which would add to those costs and do most of my own vehicle maintenance.  That year I also didn't buy an expensive equipment - poles etc, just a couple of new brushes.

So before I start your 3 properties it will cost me £12 just to be there and then I have to pay myself a wage on top of that. I also have to consider putting a little aside to pay for living when I can't get out during bad and/or windy weather. This last winter has been rather difficult for windows cleaners in the North East because of the bad weather.

As with most window cleaners, we have a minimum charge. I would expect your window cleaner also has one. His minimum charge would take into consideration his costs which would include his wages.

.



Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Kev Martin

  • Posts: 6954
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2018, 09:43:16 pm »
Its also a 'free' world where we have a choice. If your current window cleaner isn't doing a satisfactory job then you could look for one that will clean frames and do a better job.

Its my opinion that if the frames are left dirty then its very difficult to only clean the glass and do a good job. As with any trade, you get those who do the least possible for the most reward and then those who take pride in their work. Window cleaning is no different. In fact, we know a window cleaner who looks for customers who are happy with a 90% job. He says you will never do a perfect job. At most you can accomplish is 95% and that takes twice as long to achieve another 5% which is hardly noticeable. Its all about money to him, and window cleaning is a numbers game if that's what drives/motivates the window cleaner.

As has been posted earlier, a trolley user is trying to save water so this could also be an issue. But it could also be that his water isn't as pure as it could/should be.

Pricing is a very contentious issue.  If the window cleaner was doing a job to your satisfaction I doubt you would have posted your 'grievance' on here. I also doubt that you would have analysed his local to you route and calcuated his hourly rate.

I clean a 3 story Victorian house on the High Street which was converted to an accountant's offices many years back. It takes me  about 40 minutes to complete. I've done this place for nearly 10 years. When I quoted I allowed myself 45 minutes to do the job during normal business hours. But as the  High Street has become more busy its was taking me over twice as long. Recently a Wetherspoons has opened next door and foot traffic is horrendous, not to mention parking. So to do the job in reasonable time, I have to get there for 6/7am on a Sunday morning  and a little later in the winter. So does this mean that I should reduce my charge because I'm not taking so long? No.

Our customer has broken the actuator lever on one of her new velux windows. Velux will come out and the cost is £100 to have a look at it. He then charges £50 an hour or part thereof to fit the actuator which is held on with a few screws. The actuator cost £100.  Total cost £250 and did we mention that VAT needs to be added to that. Now I wouldn't hestitate to say that the overheads to employ that tradesman to do that job isn't anywhere near what my overheads are as a wfp window cleaner. ( I do appreciate that his costs are exaggerated and skewed due to the size of the corporation his works for.) A couple of years back I divided my total annual running costs (expenses) by the number of jobs I had done that year. I didn't include wages. Each job cost me £4 to just arrive at the door; water filtration, insurances, fuel, servicing, equipment etc. - no wages. I run on a shoe string and I don't have a new van which would add to those costs and do most of my own vehicle maintenance.  That year I also didn't buy an expensive equipment - poles etc, just a couple of new brushes.

So before I start your 3 properties it will cost me £12 just to be there and then I have to pay myself a wage on top of that. I also have to consider putting a little aside to pay for living when I can't get out during bad and/or windy weather. This last winter has been rather difficult for windows cleaners in the North East because of the bad weather.

As with most window cleaners, we have a minimum charge. I would expect your window cleaner also has one. His minimum charge would take into consideration his costs which would include his wages.

.

Thank you for your post the content of which has been noted but you are slightly digressing from the actual issue.  I merely asked for some advice regarding WFP Cleaning with pure water so that I could reach an informed decision as to whether My current window cleaner is doing a satisfactory  job. 
"Natural Stone Restoration Specialists" Tel: 0121 773 9129
www.tilinglogistics.co.uk | www.marblelife.co.uk  http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Tiling-Logistics

The Jester of Wibbly

  • Posts: 2093
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2018, 10:16:40 pm »
Why not just take it up with your window cleaner.  Probably the best way for you to go.   Show him the issues you have and he should be able to either let you know the issue or change his method a little after he investigates. Then you can decide if you want to continue with him.  Are your neighbours satisfied?

Without a detailed description of the issues or even a photo as asked before we can't really proivide accurate info.

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Matt.

  • Posts: 1828
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2018, 10:20:09 pm »
£40 for 20 mins work is all day, cash on the job aswell  ...... Not sure what time a lot of u start work but with commercial most are out earlier than this.

I don't use a trolley even tho I have one, I would just add another 100m of hose to go from the van were ever it's parked, and at 7am most high streets even pedestrian zones can be drove down.

Just have a look at ur windows up close kev, can u see spotting on them, or is there runs from top frame, try and describe it if possible, if he doesn't do ur frames ask him why not as it's part of the job. Windows and frames cleaned each time.

Truth is Kev it's the same everywhere u go, personal standards but lots try to get away with more and more until the custard complains.

AV a little chat to ya windy if ya not happy let him know ur concerns and see what happens.

And as last resort buy a tds metre off eBay ( £10-£15 ) and ask him for a sample of his water, the reading should be 000 but a bit of give and allow it upto 010


Kev Martin

  • Posts: 6954
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2018, 10:29:20 pm »
Why not just take it up with your window cleaner.  Probably the best way for you to go.   Show him the issues you have and he should be able to either let you know the issue or change his method a little after he investigates. Then you can decide if you want to continue with him.  Are your neighbours satisfied?

Without a detailed description of the issues or even a photo as asked before we can't really proivide accurate info.

To be honest you have all been very helpful.  I now understand the short comings of the WFP method of cleaning and with the spotting he is leaving it is now my opinion that:

A.  His water is not pure or not pure enough
B.  He is trying to also save water so is therefore not rinsing satisfactorily.

The next time he comes I will actually pay attention to the way he does it.  The fact is probably as SPRUCE says that he is either skimping, or not using pure water to save money and keep costs down.  What he is probably frightened of is increasing the price.  So rather than sack him off I will suggest he does it correctly and I will pay whatever extra it costs for  hopefully a better result.  Whatever, he is doing wrong or trying to save time and money on he has the redeeming feature of being 100% reliable and punctual.
"Natural Stone Restoration Specialists" Tel: 0121 773 9129
www.tilinglogistics.co.uk | www.marblelife.co.uk  http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Tiling-Logistics

Kev Martin

  • Posts: 6954
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2018, 10:32:05 pm »
£40 for 20 mins work is all day, cash on the job aswell  ...... Not sure what time a lot of u start work but with commercial most are out earlier than this.

I don't use a trolley even tho I have one, I would just add another 100m of hose to go from the van were ever it's parked, and at 7am most high streets even pedestrian zones can be drove down.

Just have a look at ur windows up close kev, can u see spotting on them, or is there runs from top frame, try and describe it if possible, if he doesn't do ur frames ask him why not as it's part of the job. Windows and frames cleaned each time.

Truth is Kev it's the same everywhere u go, personal standards but lots try to get away with more and more until the custard complains.

AV a little chat to ya windy if ya not happy let him know ur concerns and see what happens.

And as last resort buy a tds metre off eBay ( £10-£15 ) and ask him for a sample of his water, the reading should be 000 but a bit of give and allow it upto 010

Matt

My thoughts entirely in fact we were both writing at the same time (see above). Great minds eh! ;D
"Natural Stone Restoration Specialists" Tel: 0121 773 9129
www.tilinglogistics.co.uk | www.marblelife.co.uk  http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Tiling-Logistics

֍Winp®oClean֍

  • Posts: 1619
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2018, 10:46:13 pm »
Why not just take it up with your window cleaner.  Probably the best way for you to go.   Show him the issues you have and he should be able to either let you know the issue or change his method a little after he investigates. Then you can decide if you want to continue with him.  Are your neighbours satisfied?

Without a detailed description of the issues or even a photo as asked before we can't really proivide accurate info.

To be honest you have all been very helpful.  I now understand the short comings of the WFP method of cleaning and with the spotting he is leaving it is now my opinion that:

A.  His water is not pure or not pure enough
B.  He is trying to also save water so is therefore not rinsing satisfactorily.

The next time he comes I will actually pay attention to the way he does it.  The fact is probably as SPRUCE says that he is either skimping, or not using pure water to save money and keep costs down.  What he is probably frightened of is increasing the price.  So rather than sack him off I will suggest he does it correctly and I will pay whatever extra it costs for  hopefully a better result.  Whatever, he is doing wrong or trying to save time and money on he has the redeeming feature of being 100% reliable and punctual.

I bet he is... £120 an hour for doing a crap job as quickly as possible- I bet he can't get enough mugs like that!! ;D ;D
Comfortably Numb!

Spruce

  • Posts: 8377
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2018, 10:50:49 pm »
Its also a 'free' world where we have a choice. If your current window cleaner isn't doing a satisfactory job then you could look for one that will clean frames and do a better job.

Its my opinion that if the frames are left dirty then its very difficult to only clean the glass and do a good job. As with any trade, you get those who do the least possible for the most reward and then those who take pride in their work. Window cleaning is no different. In fact, we know a window cleaner who looks for customers who are happy with a 90% job. He says you will never do a perfect job. At most you can accomplish is 95% and that takes twice as long to achieve another 5% which is hardly noticeable. Its all about money to him, and window cleaning is a numbers game if that's what drives/motivates the window cleaner.

As has been posted earlier, a trolley user is trying to save water so this could also be an issue. But it could also be that his water isn't as pure as it could/should be.

Pricing is a very contentious issue.  If the window cleaner was doing a job to your satisfaction I doubt you would have posted your 'grievance' on here. I also doubt that you would have analysed his local to you route and calcuated his hourly rate.

I clean a 3 story Victorian house on the High Street which was converted to an accountant's offices many years back. It takes me  about 40 minutes to complete. I've done this place for nearly 10 years. When I quoted I allowed myself 45 minutes to do the job during normal business hours. But as the  High Street has become more busy its was taking me over twice as long. Recently a Wetherspoons has opened next door and foot traffic is horrendous, not to mention parking. So to do the job in reasonable time, I have to get there for 6/7am on a Sunday morning  and a little later in the winter. So does this mean that I should reduce my charge because I'm not taking so long? No.

Our customer has broken the actuator lever on one of her new velux windows. Velux will come out and the cost is £100 to have a look at it. He then charges £50 an hour or part thereof to fit the actuator which is held on with a few screws. The actuator cost £100.  Total cost £250 and did we mention that VAT needs to be added to that. Now I wouldn't hestitate to say that the overheads to employ that tradesman to do that job isn't anywhere near what my overheads are as a wfp window cleaner. ( I do appreciate that his costs are exaggerated and skewed due to the size of the corporation his works for.) A couple of years back I divided my total annual running costs (expenses) by the number of jobs I had done that year. I didn't include wages. Each job cost me £4 to just arrive at the door; water filtration, insurances, fuel, servicing, equipment etc. - no wages. I run on a shoe string and I don't have a new van which would add to those costs and do most of my own vehicle maintenance.  That year I also didn't buy an expensive equipment - poles etc, just a couple of new brushes.

So before I start your 3 properties it will cost me £12 just to be there and then I have to pay myself a wage on top of that. I also have to consider putting a little aside to pay for living when I can't get out during bad and/or windy weather. This last winter has been rather difficult for windows cleaners in the North East because of the bad weather.

As with most window cleaners, we have a minimum charge. I would expect your window cleaner also has one. His minimum charge would take into consideration his costs which would include his wages.

.

Thank you for your post the content of which has been noted but you are slightly digressing from the actual issue.  I merely asked for some advice regarding WFP Cleaning with pure water so that I could reach an informed decision as to whether My current window cleaner is doing a satisfactory  job.

IMHO if he isn't cleaning the window frame and your aren't happy with the results then he isn't cleaning to your satisfaction.  So by extension, he isn't doing a satisfactory job. One of the things the EU did for us was to provide a detailed description of what constitutes a window. Its the glass, the frame and the sill.

So you could talk to him and express your concerns. I'm not sure I would be thinking of offering him extra to do a job he should already be doing. It will end up him just doing what he has always done and you paying more.

There aren't many of us who can be that reliable that our customers know the day and the hour as to when we will arrive. This could well be another issue. If he can't get out one day due to the bad weather, does he go like Tucker's dogs and cramb that lost day into the following day. Rushing wfp is a 'slippery slope'.

The process that most of us follow is to clean the upper window frame, then the glass and then the lower frame. The best clean is 2 passes with the brush over the glass and then a full rinse. Personally, I prefer to lift the brush slightly away from the glass when I rinse to ensure that any dirt that might still be left on the brush doesn't effect the quality of my clean.

There are window cleaners who rinse with their brush on the glass, but I have found that when I do that I can't always guarantee to myself that the result is to my satisfaction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TnRRSYdoXw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_43bkUQY_T4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uuPft4tjLk

I can honestly say that our customer's windows are cleaner and stay cleaner for longer since we converted to wfp 13 years ago from traditional window cleaning. Our older customers who have been with us since Adam was a lad before we changed to wfp will tell you the same thing. They already told us that years ago.
.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Splash & dash

  • Posts: 4364
Re: A bit of advice from the WFP Pro’s Please
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2018, 10:57:16 pm »
If he is doing a poor job why on earth would you offer him more to do the job right he should already be doing that , what he’s charging is good money for poor work get rid of him and get a decent cleaner who will do it properly, if you give him more money he will be thinking what a mug you are