[Fast 1 *]

reading some of these threads,and going by what is going on in the building industry,do you think ladders will not be permitted soon?I currently do it the traditional way,and am not particulary drawn to using wfp.Does anyone have information on this?to be honest,i would be gutted if this happened.

[Trevor Knight]

All I will say on this matter is that I guess within time it will be inevitable that ladders will cease to be the norm and I expect insurance companies to take a hard line for such users.

The way this country has embraced Health and Safety has been to the extreme, not just with window cleaning but within all aspects.

I guess as with most things, certain methods that we use will be phased out and new ones will be adopted.

The biggest problem Traditional users will face is that the general opinion of this industry is that WFP is the way forward. So many manufacturers are investing millions into the research and development of this method that the government will have little or no option than to set this as the standard.

The serious injuries and deaths surrounding the use of ladders is high and that is something that is a fact.

The government spend huge sums of money caring for these people, emergency services, hospital, physio, benefits that they will have no option but to reconsider what is and what isn't legal and the best and safest method.

Well, thats my opinion anyway.

Best wishes,

Trev

[JM123]

I think it will be a sad day if ladders are banned completely for wcing - I'm wfp but think ladders are reasonably safe, and also believe it should be down to individual choice whether to use ladders or not.  Unfortunately that is only my view but regardless I'd never change back.

[ronaldo]

If they do ban ladders there are going to be a lot of dirty windows about because you certainly cant clean them all with a pole.

[pjulk]

I think myself 75% of window cleaners in the next 10 years will be using a ladderless system, Might not be WFP maybe a pole with traditional tools who knows.

I also think the HSE are going to crack down a bit with ladder work which in one way is a good thing if it save live's or accidents.

Some jobs still need ladders so i am hoping that allowances in the future will be made for this.

I use WFP and traditional and i hope ladders never get banned as they are a tool in which we need but its going to get harder to justify working off of ladders.

Look at holland total ban on window cleaning with ladders.
I think we may be heading that way.

Paul

[Sir Squeaky]

If they do ban ladders there are going to be a lot of dirty windows about because you certainly cant clean them all with a pole.

Correct.

I've counted a few days worth of these on my round, and there's more windows I couldn't do with pole than I can't do with ladders.

I'd have to miss loads.

[poleman]

Ladder Ban? its not going to happen, why do HSE give press releases saying ladders are not banned...because at the very least, down the line they will be needed for access from & maybe not working from, they also know our industry is going thought changes and a lot of window cleaners are changing over to WFP not because of WAHR but because its benefits are business, anyway the picture should be clearer with the new guidelines on the use of ladders this summer, lets hope its black and white and stop the confession that is in are industry at the moment  

Andy            

[Fast 1 *]

i didnt know that it is banned in holland.Mind you,it wouldnt be a bad job getting the windows in the red light district

[rosskesava]

Today we got 3 new potential jobs all because the customers concerned thought wfp was rubbish. 2 we turned down because to do them trad style was to risky. For those 2 customers, I think that in time they will have to accept a less than perfect job.

I think that the wfp problem will not go away and what ever gets posted on this forum, I've yet to see a perfect finish with wfp. I've seen good and very good but not immaculate.

For business's, above the first floor, around here wfp is pretty much accepted as standard and added to which, commercial customers generally speaking are not so much worried about a perfect finish.

I cannot see ladders being banned though. Practically speaking, what about say a burglar alarm engineer who has to fix a problem. Is he going to have to have scaffold erected for 5 minuted work at 7 foot high? Or like as around here at the moment, they are repairing all the gutters and have put scaffolding up? What will each house need in the future, a lift? What about someone who fits aerials? Or DIY? Scaffolding to paint your own walls?

To ban ladders completely would be so impractical and would cost industry billions upon billions of ££££'s but what I do think is that regulations will get tighter and wfp will become more the norm.

A lot of hype comes from wfp makers. I've read so many times about ladders being illegal by well known companies ( and on this forum) untill the threatened water shortage may have put a stop to using wfp, and then oddly enough, their view on ladders suddenly changed because if those using wfp went bust........

Best to stick to what common sense says will be. The HSE aren't so daft as to make rules that are impractical.

As for deaths from working at height, the vast majority are in the construction industry and forrestry. The most dangerous job generally (apart from being a soldier) is as a fisherman - I mean the 'boat' variety and not the rod and tackle type, and that has not been banned.

Cheers

[Fast 1 *]

to be honest,i havent seen anyone using wfp on domestic.I have seen quite a few vans with the reach and wash emblem on,and my mate has used it on commercial work in london.

[rosskesava]

Funny you write that - thinking about it, I've yet to see wfp on anything domestic. I've seen blocks of flats, 3 or 4 stories high being done with wfp which is obviously a contract but not houses.

I've heard the complaints from domestic customers but I've never seen a house being done wfp. Having said that, we do a fair few but only when needed and never the ground floor or anything that can be safely done with tradtional methods as I'm fed up with complaints.

Interesting point you made there.

[Fast 1 *]

it seems every one on this site uses  wfp

[rosskesava]

It does seem so doesn't it. It wasn't always like that.

We use both methods but for 95% of our commercial work, traditional is still by far the quickest and easiest and I'll bet anyone any amount money on that.

For most of our resindentual places, I still prefer traditional methods.

What's new and what requires some type of technicality always grabs the headlines. It's how it is now.

That and new regulations.

[Trevor Knight]

I cannot see ladders being banned though. Practically speaking, what about say a burglar alarm engineer who has to fix a problem. Is he going to have to have scaffold erected for 5 minuted work at 7 foot high? Or like as around here at the moment, they are repairing all the gutters and have put scaffolding up? What will each house need in the future, a lift? What about someone who fits aerials? Or DIY? Scaffolding to paint your own walls?

To ban ladders completely would be so impractical and would cost industry billions upon billions of ££££'s but what I do think is that regulations will get tighter and wfp will become more the norm.

The point about this WAH directive is to use the safest method available.

The trades you are mentioning above have little if no alternative to using ladders. However, my freind works for Sky TV and his use of ladders is so restricted, i.e. ladder stay, rope to fixing point, height restriction that it takes him far longer to erect a dish than it used to.

I think in this industry, because we do have an alternative method, this is where the pressure will come from.

Our company insurance have already sent us a letter for us to detail our methods as they are reviewing our policy at the moment.

This debate will run until the government stamp and seal it. Then we will all know where we stand.

regards,

Trev

[Ian_Giles]

I think for window cleaning ladders will become a no-no at some point in the future, or at least in situations where either WFP or cleaning with trad tools on a pole is a practical option.
Mostly, if you can get at it with a ladder, then you can get at it with a pole; end of story.
And it is that angle that insurance and H & S will eventually take.

DIY will remain the same, and people such as aerial fitters and so on will continue as before, its utterly impractical for them to work otherwise.
So there will always be times when the only practical option is to work off a ladder (whatever your trade)

But when you look at window cleaning, and you ask yourself if there is a practical alternative to doing those next set of windows with ladders, in almost all cases the answer is yes.

Flaky frames? Tough, the customer will have to put up with a lower standard of finish.
You will need a good reason NOT to use poles (and I don't just mean WFP either)

H & S is insidious, its all about reducing risk, and if the job can be done without recourse to climbing a ladder, then that, ultimately is where it is going to go.

And no, I don't think it is right, but that is the way it is going...

And I am continually baffled that Rosskesava cannot come across work that is at least the equal of anything done trad
I do a raft of work where the finish is second to none, truly, and all my domestic work is done WFP...every single one of them, and I can rarely find fault with the work, quite a few have the inside of the windows done too, so I get to check it up close and personal.
It's true that there are a few accounts that would be better done trad, and I don't mean those with powdery frames, but the finish is acceptable, and it is balanced by the fact that the frames are washed spotelssly clean...no more spiders or cobwebs or grubby corners on the frames, and on conservatories thats a big deal.

I think it is important to remember we are only talking about 1st floor and above, we are not talking about the loss of trad window cleaning, only the use of ladders in most circumstances.


Ian

so i agree with Trevor on this one

[jeff1]

Do you remember one of my threads (lost my first one to wfp) in that I stated it was the first work I had seen with wfp
I also stated thet it would take me double the time I take traditionally to produce results like the wfp produced. it was the first time these windows were done with wfp, and they were spottles,and I was up my ladder looking at them. so I know very good results can be obtained with wfp systems.
I still am a traditional wc. apart from the safty aspect, its faster, and faster means more money,mabe I am greedy but I'm looking after No 1,
I want to be around to see my grandkids grow up.

[Spursboy1972]

I personally don't think that trad w/c will ever be a thing of the past and I hope not. I am not against wfp. I believe there is a place for both within our industry.I do however believe (and this is only my opinion) that someone in the government will be getting brown envelopes to help push through legislation to ban ladders. Who really benefits... The Manufacturers make a fortune because everybody has to have the equipment. Prices go through the roof because you have no choice.

However if HSE want to tighten ladder control I personally have no issues with that. I see a lot of idiots about and they need to be stopped.  For example there are 2 guys around Southampton in a white escort. I passed them the other day and instead of proper feet on the bottom of their wooden ladders they had old bike tyre rubber. Yes it is their choice but I was annoyed because these guys are prob cheap and they have a fair amount of commercial work aas well as domestic so these people should be re educated. if poss.

[bumper]

I think if HSE want to ban ladders, they shuld buy the systems for window cleaners who carnt afford one,thats the onlyway i will convert.
                                     BUMPER.

[shaunjames]

It remains to be seen if ladders are to be banned, personally I can't see it. But as someone coming back into window cleaning it can seem rather depressing with all this wfp, perhaps they should rename this site WFP only. There is still so much work out there that doesn't require the necessity of wfp. I have just recently bought a round form a guy who started back with his father over 40 years ago, and 80% of the work is at ground level( shop fronts etc) along with the work being spread out. For approx 12-15 hours per week that nets me £15000. A lot of guys on the forum seem to be on a mission to make as much per hour as possible, this I think makes people like me and others anxious, as if the only alternative is to join the wfp revolution. I think for the foreseeable future there will be plenty of work for traditional , you just have to be more selective but like with all things, one has to keep abreast of change, I too am just in the process of acquiring a backpack to assist me on some jobs and to enable me to work within H&S legislation, not to build an empire

[pure reach]

We use wfp for both comm. & dom. work. Also as regards to the finish , it is beter than the trad. way , because you don't get any runs spot smears etc.
In the hot weather also with the trad way once the glass gets hot , sometimes when you soap up the window it dries before you get your blade out , you don't get that problem with wfp.